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today's guest is professor michael levin

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a developmental biologist and synthetic

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biologist at tufts university in my

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opinion his work is worthy of a nobel

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prize being the equivalent of

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discovering dna as the basis of genetic

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memory though instead of a biochemical

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code he found a bioelectric one and

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instead of genetic memory at the low

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level it's large-scale anatomical

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structures at the high level click on

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the time stamp in the description if

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you'd like to skip this intro michael

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evans work has direct implications for

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cancer research the regeneration of

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limbs the possible regeneration of

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tissue in general and thus may aid with

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alzheimer's research the creation of

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engineered life that can scour areas for

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toxins and remove them

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the creation of an entirely new drug

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market based on non-neural bioelectric

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manipulation and even recovering traits

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that have been in species that have went

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extinct millions of years ago that live

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in us via mechanisms we're only now

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beginning to understand because of

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michael and his teams and his

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collaborators teams work truly truly

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groundbreaking for those new to this

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channel my name is kurt jaimungle i'm a

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filmmaker with a background in

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mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication of what are called theories

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of everything from a theoretical physics

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perspective but as well as delineating

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the possible connection consciousness

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has to the fundamental laws of nature

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provided these laws exist at all and are

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knowable to us

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if you enjoy witnessing and or engaging

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in real-time conversation with others on

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the topics of psychology neurobiology

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physics consciousness free will god and

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so on then do visit the discord and the

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subreddit the links for those are in the

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description there's also a link to the

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patreon in the description that is

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patreon.com

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kurt jaimungle as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reason i'm able to

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do this full time it would be near

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impossible for me to have conversations

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like this with any fidelity with any

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depth

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on topics like consciousness loop

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quantum gravity geometric unity that's

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coming up string theory non-neural

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bioelectric manipulation and so on if

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not for the patrons and the sponsors

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thank you and again that link is

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patreon.com kurchimongo speaking of

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sponsors there are two the first sponsor

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this podcast since near its inception

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now omdat has a podcast on ai and

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consciousness and if you'd like to

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support this channel that is the toe

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channel then please visit the

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description and support his channel as

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doing so supports this indirectly the

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second sponsor is brilliant brilliance

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referenced when you hear that the

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standard model is contingent on u1 cross

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su-2 cross su-3 those are technically

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surprised at the ease at which you can

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comprehend subjects you had previously

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had a difficult time grocking don't stop

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before four lessons thank you and enjoy

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this non-blessing and wondrously

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eye-opening conversation with professor

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michael levin

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i think what you're doing is nobel

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prize-winning work well thank you so

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much that's very kind thank you i'm

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extremely

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very much looking forward to this thank

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you when i was researching you about

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every 10 minutes or so you would say

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this

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some offhand comment that would

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floor me because of its consequences and

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then you'd move on and then you'd say

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what trumps what came before and this

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happened over and over

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so why don't you start with

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what non-neural bioelectric states are

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their relationship to anatomical results

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and then later we can compare and

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contrast to standard developmental

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biology for decades which is it's the

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genome that instructs constructs perhaps

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what's epigenetic so we'll start with

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what are bioelectric non-neural

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bioelectric states and their

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relationship to anatomical results

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sure uh okay well

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so so non-neural bioelectrical states

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are simply the fact that all cells in

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your body not just neurons have the same

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machinery that's normally associated

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with neural cells so ion channels

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electrical synapses neurotransmitter

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pathways all of these things are way

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older than nervous systems and all every

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cell in your body is creating an

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electrical potential across its membrane

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most cells in your body are

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communicating those states to their

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neighbors via these electrical synapses

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and

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if you ask yourself where did neurons

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and brains come from they didn't just

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spring up out of nowhere evolution

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basically

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uh speed optimized processes that were

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already here around the time of

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bacterial biofilms they're ancient these

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things are ancient

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and so

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uh

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the phylogeny of of nervous systems and

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neural cells you find out that all cells

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have these and in fact we've had

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discussions very lengthy discussions on

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some of these basal cognition meetings

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in terms of what is a neuron you know

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people people will say well here are

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neurons and i'll and i'll say by the way

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what's a neuron and so they'll write on

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the board four or five criteria for what

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they think is a neuron and then they say

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well every cell does this and so uh

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there are a couple of there are a couple

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of differences but but but most things

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are fairly universal and so then the

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question becomes we'll find what are

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they used what is this used for so in

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the brain what you have is a system

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where an electrical network is

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processing information to

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direct muscles that move your body

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through three-dimensional space that's

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behavior nervous system control of

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behavior

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in

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prior to that what these systems were

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used for were to generate signals that

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control cell behavior to move your body

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configuration through anatomical space

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that is the space of possible anatomical

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configurations so i think um and i'm

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working on some more stuff on this now

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in terms of really broadening this this

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idea but but i think what evolution did

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was pivot some of the same tricks

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across different spaces so electrical

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uh electrical networks were used to

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control to traverse

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first in evolution probably first

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metabolic spaces and then physiological

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spaces and then transcriptional spaces

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and amorphous spaces and eventually

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three-dimensional space when mussels

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came on the scene and animals could run

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around and do things like that

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but uh that's that's what electrical

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networks used to think about before they

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thought about behavior in

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three-dimensional space they thought

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about navigating other types of space

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now how does this compare to the

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standard view which is just it's our dna

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that programs us the the the the

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standard view is correct in the

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following sense what the dna specifies

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is the structure of the micro hardware

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of your cells so the dna gives you the

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protein level

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uh sequence meaning the the structure of

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the proteins that every cell has that's

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the hardware so the dna the dna is what

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specifies the hardware of the cells now

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it turns out that that hardware is

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awesome it's it's amazing in the

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following way when you put that hardware

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together it not only has specific uh

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sort of default behaviors but it also

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has lo it has computational capacity and

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it's reprogrammable that that's that's

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so that's actually one of the most

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exciting parts about it but uh the the

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the the the standard view is that

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you should be able to

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uh very directly go from what's in the

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genome to

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the anatomical structures and i i think

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what that view is missing is a very

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important middle layer that sits between

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the hardware and then of the anatomy of

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the the hardware of the genome rather

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and the final outcome this the santa

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these this anatomical homeostasis that

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we see in regeneration and development

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and so on and that layer is the software

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it's the physiological software that

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that uh that links those two things

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together

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can you tell me some of the experiments

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that you've done take the audience

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through a couple of the experiments so

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one you amputate a frog's leg and then

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you're able to regenerate it so on and

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so on maybe outline three that you find

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most flabbergasting

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sure sure um okay uh let's see so so so

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here's one

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if you use a voltage-sensitive

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fluorescent dye which basically just

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reports you flood your your tissue with

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it and it just reports

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with with um different types of

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fluorescence it reports where the

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different voltage values are if you look

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at the early embryo as it's putting its

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face together for example you will see

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something we call the electric face and

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this was discovered in work with my

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colleague danny adams where

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we found this thing called the electric

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face which is basically that prior to

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all the genes being turned on that are

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required to make different face

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components and so on and certainly prior

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to the anatomy there is a an electrical

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pre pattern that you see in that region

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that

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basically looks like a face you can see

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where the eyes are going to be because

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that's where the voltage is different

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you can see where the mouth is going to

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be you can see where the placards on the

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side of the head are going to be and so

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you see this electrical face and it and

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it raised the obvious uh the obvious

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question which is that if that pattern

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is instructive then you ought to be able

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to do two things you ought to be able to

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mess it up and thus disrupt that

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electrical pattern and thus get defects

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in craniofacial patterning and and

282
00:09:58,630 --> 00:09:57,040
certainly you can do that and in fact

283
00:10:00,790 --> 00:09:58,640
there are even human channelopathies

284
00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:00,800
where humans have mutations and ion

285
00:10:04,389 --> 00:10:02,640
channels that give them craniofacial

286
00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:04,399
birth defects and defects of limb and

287
00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:06,560
brain and other things so that

288
00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:08,720
that so that's that's true but the other

289
00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:10,240
thing the more exciting thing you might

290
00:10:12,630 --> 00:10:11,360
be able to do

291
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:12,640
is to take some of those electrical

292
00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:14,720
patterns and move them somewhere else

293
00:10:18,470 --> 00:10:16,640
and you could say okay if if this is the

294
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:18,480
type of pattern that says to the cells

295
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:20,160
build an eye here

296
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,399
could we move that electrical state to

297
00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:23,839
somewhere else not move the cells but

298
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:25,680
move the electrical pattern

299
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:27,279
reintroduce that electrical pattern

300
00:10:31,190 --> 00:10:29,360
somewhere else and and get it to build

301
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:31,200
an ion so this is actually we we did

302
00:10:36,389 --> 00:10:32,560
this this is some of our some of our

303
00:10:39,269 --> 00:10:36,399
earlier work um you know around uh 2007

304
00:10:41,430 --> 00:10:39,279
or so we we discovered this uh basically

305
00:10:43,269 --> 00:10:41,440
you take one ion channel that's able to

306
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:43,279
induce a particular electrical pattern

307
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:46,160
in in the in a region of cells and you

308
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:49,120
inject rna encoding that ion channel in

309
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:50,399
some other part of the embryo that's

310
00:10:53,430 --> 00:10:52,000
going to be gut let's say okay it's

311
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:53,440
going to make endoderms to make gut

312
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:54,560
cells

313
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:57,760
and sure enough uh and so and so three

314
00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:58,959
things are significant about what

315
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:01,040
happens the first is that you get an i

316
00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:02,320
then you get an i in the middle of the

317
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:04,320
gut you get an eye constructed from

318
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:07,600
cells that were going to be gut

319
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,240
so this is remarkable because if you

320
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:12,720
look at the um

321
00:11:16,389 --> 00:11:14,720
developmental biology textbooks what you

322
00:11:18,389 --> 00:11:16,399
will see is that they say that cells

323
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:18,399
outside of the anterior neuroderm are

324
00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:20,560
not competent to become eyes they're not

325
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:22,000
supposed to be able to make eyes and

326
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:23,600
that's true if you use the the

327
00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:26,560
biochemical master eye gene pac-6 if you

328
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,640
if you try to re-induce eyes with pac-6

329
00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:30,240
that's true it doesn't form and it you

330
00:11:33,829 --> 00:11:31,839
can't get ectopic eyes anywhere outside

331
00:11:36,069 --> 00:11:33,839
the head but by introducing this

332
00:11:37,269 --> 00:11:36,079
bioelectric pattern you can and so

333
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,279
that's so that's the first thing that

334
00:11:42,069 --> 00:11:39,040
you you can you can

335
00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:42,079
go beyond the known uh competency limits

336
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:44,160
by using this very upstream sort of

337
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,839
master regulator this this electrical

338
00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:47,360
pattern the second thing that's

339
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,360
interesting about it is that

340
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:51,839
the information content that we provide

341
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:53,839
by putting in this channel is extremely

342
00:11:58,069 --> 00:11:56,240
low we don't micro specify the details

343
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:58,079
of how to make an eye you know i has a

344
00:12:01,750 --> 00:11:59,839
dozen cell types all arranged in a

345
00:12:03,829 --> 00:12:01,760
particular way we don't know how to do

346
00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:03,839
that we couldn't possibly do you know we

347
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:06,320
couldn't possibly do that in fact

348
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,639
what what we do instead is provide a

349
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,399
very simple signal

350
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:12,880
that to a programmer basically looks

351
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:15,279
like a subroutine call right it's a

352
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:17,279
trigger it's a trigger for a cascade

353
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:18,959
that the animal already knows how to do

354
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,639
it already knows how to make eyes we're

355
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:22,079
not saying how to make an eye what we're

356
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:23,200
saying is

357
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,959
make an eye here

358
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:27,120
but by triggering that that eye building

359
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,639
module which includes all the gene

360
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:29,680
expression everything else that's

361
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:31,920
downstream so that modularity that that

362
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:34,959
that incredible um engineering trick

363
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:37,040
that uh that that says that you can call

364
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:38,399
up once you know how to do something you

365
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:40,079
can reuse it

366
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:41,360
in other places the fact that these

367
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,399
bioelectrical states are triggers of

368
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:46,800
developmental subroutines okay so that's

369
00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:47,920
that's kind of the second cool thing

370
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:49,760
about it the third cool thing about it

371
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:53,279
is that if you label the cells that you

372
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,160
are injecting the channel rna into with

373
00:13:00,550 --> 00:12:58,240
some with us with a color so you can so

374
00:13:01,269 --> 00:13:00,560
you can tell which cells actually got

375
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:01,279
the

376
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,519
you look at that eye that you've created

377
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,440
what you will see is that often for

378
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:09,279
example half the eye

379
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:12,160
will have the channel you put in the

380
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:13,920
other half the eye doesn't have it that

381
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,600
means that what the cells that you

382
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:16,800
affected what they did was they

383
00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:19,040
recruited their normal neighbors

384
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:21,040
right which by themselves were never

385
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:22,959
modified by you they were completely

386
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:24,800
wild-type and

387
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:26,399
and yet they got recruited by their

388
00:13:29,829 --> 00:13:28,160
neighbors to be part of this thing so

389
00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:29,839
there's two levels of instruction here

390
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,079
there's instruction by us saying to a

391
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,480
region you make an eye and then there's

392
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:36,399
a secondary instruction by those cells

393
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:37,600
that say oh and by the way i'm going to

394
00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:39,040
need more cells hey you guys over here

395
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,720
you're going to be part of this lens and

396
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:42,320
they all come and they even the ones

397
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:44,240
that we never directly affected and so

398
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:46,959
this third part is cool because

399
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,760
well the the the second part is cool the

400
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:52,000
the fact that it's it's modular and a

401
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:53,680
trigger is cool because that means that

402
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:54,639
you can

403
00:13:59,670 --> 00:13:57,519
achieve regenerative medicine outcomes

404
00:14:02,230 --> 00:13:59,680
things that are way too complex for us

405
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:02,240
to micromanage by using triggers if we

406
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:03,680
can identify

407
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,440
the triggers of the subroutines that we

408
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:07,360
want make an eye make a layer make a

409
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:08,240
liver

410
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,839
then we can trigger those things long

411
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,360
before we actually know all the details

412
00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:13,519
about how to micromanage it right so

413
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:15,760
part of part of reverse engineering and

414
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:17,120
i very much see this as a reverse

415
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:19,040
engineering task part of reverse

416
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:21,120
engineering is finding out all the cool

417
00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:23,120
hooks in the system that are already

418
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,800
there for you not that you have to put

419
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,800
them together from scratch but they're

420
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:28,320
already there for you what is the

421
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:30,000
trigger that that's the build and i sub

422
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,680
routine what other subroutines are there

423
00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:33,600
right that's that's that's part of our

424
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:35,440
job the other the thing that's cool

425
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:36,959
about that third part is that it's

426
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:39,279
non-cell autonomous meaning

427
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:41,360
you can exert effects on cells without

428
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:43,199
touching them directly because cells

429
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:44,800
communicate to each other so by

430
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:45,920
convincing

431
00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:47,279
a bunch of cells over here that they

432
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:50,480
should make an eye you in effect uh

433
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:52,000
affect a bunch of other cells and cause

434
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,920
them to be part of that eye without

435
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:55,839
having to touch them directly and that

436
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:56,959
comes up

437
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:57,920
sorry that's what you meant when you

438
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,000
were talking about recruiting earlier

439
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:02,160
exactly exactly right exactly right yeah

440
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:03,519
so that's so that's kind of the first

441
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,839
that's the first example um that that i

442
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:07,760
would i would talk about the second

443
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:10,000
example i would talk about uh has to do

444
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,240
with has to do with cancer and so

445
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:14,079
michael is it okay if we hold on that

446
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:16,560
cancer result because what you said was

447
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,120
so profound and i want to unpack it okay

448
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:21,120
sure sure yeah we'll hold on tell me if

449
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:22,480
this is broadly correct let's imagine

450
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:24,839
i'm a frog where the frog is

451
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:27,600
developing before an eye or a stomach or

452
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,440
a throat or whatever it is is made you

453
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:31,279
see some ad abrasion some atomization

454
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:33,199
some electrical atomization like a hint

455
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,800
of it and then what you could do is you

456
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:36,639
can say well there's some pattern let's

457
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,240
imagine it's a circle to be simplistic

458
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:40,320
there's some circular voltage gradient

459
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,959
and that means i so what if i induce

460
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,639
that what if i induce a voltage gradient

461
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:46,320
over here near the heart i know you said

462
00:15:49,829 --> 00:15:48,399
something but whatever over here

463
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:49,839
then what will happen

464
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:51,600
is instead ordinarily we would think

465
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,360
well you need to micro tune that eye

466
00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:55,199
each molecule it's extremely difficult

467
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:56,240
to make an eye we don't actually know

468
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,000
how to from the bottom up molecularly

469
00:16:01,749 --> 00:16:00,320
make an eye but we see this pattern what

470
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:01,759
if we put that pattern on the heart or

471
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:04,399
the stomach oh lo and behold some time

472
00:16:09,269 --> 00:16:07,040
amount later then an eye is born is that

473
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:09,279
correct yeah that's that that's that's

474
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:11,120
correct and the only thing i would add

475
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:13,199
to that first of all is that the reason

476
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,040
i was i was telling you about that

477
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,120
electric face pattern is because it's

478
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:18,959
kind of the most obvious one in the

479
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,880
sense that the electric face pattern

480
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,800
actually looks like a face you can't

481
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:24,399
miss it it just it just looks like a

482
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:26,320
face but not all of them are that simple

483
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:28,720
some of them are really um

484
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,360
kind of uh um

485
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,600
they're encoded more deeply such that by

486
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:35,360
by staring at it you can't tell what

487
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,759
it's going to be right so so for example

488
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,120
there are there are other patterns that

489
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:41,600
we've seen where the only way we know

490
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:44,000
what they are is is by watching what

491
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:45,680
they make we you couldn't have guessed

492
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:47,759
you know so some some of them are very

493
00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:49,519
direct almost a paint by numbers you can

494
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:51,600
sort of see what's going to happen and

495
00:16:54,069 --> 00:16:53,279
others are really complicated and you

496
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,079
need

497
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:56,399
computational tools to deconvolve what

498
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,000
you're looking at to figure out what

499
00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:00,000
it's going to be so so not all of them

500
00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:02,000
are as obvious as as the electric face

501
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:04,160
pattern right yeah one of the questions

502
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:05,679
i had was why hasn't this been found out

503
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:07,760
before was there a technological limit

504
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:09,760
or did they just not look at cells with

505
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:11,600
the dye that give an indication of

506
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,360
voltage gradients or optogenetic

507
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:15,199
technologies and so on yeah so so that

508
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:16,000
so

509
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,600
why why not before i mean on the one

510
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:21,839
hand everything has to have a beginning

511
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:23,360
at some point right so so whenever it

512
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,880
was it would have you know you could

513
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:26,400
have asked well like why not before

514
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:28,000
right but hindsight is always obvious

515
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,440
you can always you can always say but

516
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:31,039
but let's but let's kind of dig into

517
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:33,760
that um on the one hand there was a

518
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,080
conceptual uh

519
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,559
leap that kept this pretty much under i

520
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,320
mean let's be clear i am not the first

521
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:42,400
person to talk about the importance of

522
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:44,320
bioelectric signals people have been

523
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:46,880
studying endogenous by electricity since

524
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:50,320
before 1900 so so it certainly has

525
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:52,160
occurred to people that maybe electrical

526
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:53,520
signals are important in development

527
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:54,880
regeneration

528
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:57,360
all of my work i was i was incredibly

529
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:59,200
heavily inspired

530
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:00,880
by by work that was done in this in the

531
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:03,120
60s 70s and 80s by a bunch of people

532
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:04,799
that worked really hard on this stuff

533
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:07,120
the reason that it hadn't gone far

534
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,240
enough was to two reasons number one

535
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:12,080
the tools weren't there so these dyes

536
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,520
didn't exist all they had was

537
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:15,280
traditional electrophysiology in

538
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:17,039
traditional electrophysiology you have

539
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,960
one electrode and you're poking it into

540
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:20,559
cells and if you want to have a picture

541
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:21,840
of what's going on you got to poke all

542
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:23,840
the cells and that's just completely

543
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:25,840
impractical right these dyes didn't

544
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:28,880
exist the conceptual thing was that

545
00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:31,600
um around the time that this stuff was

546
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:34,160
was taking off using using electrodes

547
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,400
and things like that uh biochemistry and

548
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,799
molecular biology took off and the thing

549
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,880
that the reason molecular biology drew

550
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:42,880
all the attention is because you could

551
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:45,280
do molecular biology and biochemistry in

552
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,120
dead fixed tissue

553
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:49,120
so you can you can kill and fix your

554
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:51,200
cells and you can sequence the dna you

555
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:52,880
can sequence the rna you can get a

556
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,760
proteome you can get a uh you know all

557
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:57,200
of these all of these kinds of things

558
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:58,240
you can do

559
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,440
none of that is possible with

560
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,440
bioelectrics so the minute your cell is

561
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:03,360
dead all of it goes away

562
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,280
so none of the typical olmics approaches

563
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:07,600
work so it's it's it's uh it's it's that

564
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,919
much harder and so it really lagged

565
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,600
behind because all the interest went

566
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:13,679
into the molecular uh you know kind of

567
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:16,240
molecular biochemistry and uh and it had

568
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,640
to wait for some of these tools to to

569
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,799
come up the third thing the third thing

570
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:22,320
is is that

571
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:23,360
i think

572
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:24,559
while

573
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,200
think about uh the importance of these

574
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:31,039
bioelectric gradients

575
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,520
nobody to my knowledge uh

576
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:35,600
before we did it really thought about it

577
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:36,480
as

578
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,440
the beginnings of the nervous system and

579
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,600
to really put that computational spin on

580
00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:43,600
it the fact that this thing really is

581
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:45,679
liking neural network doing computations

582
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:48,080
about development i i think that's new i

583
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:51,280
i will say um harold burr who was this

584
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:54,559
guy was working in the 30s 1930s 40s and

585
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:57,760
50s okay he had one of the first good

586
00:20:02,390 --> 00:19:59,679
volt meters around and he went around

587
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,400
measuring things you know elm trees and

588
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:04,799
rabbits and tumors and embryos and all

589
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:07,280
kinds of stuff on the basis of this he

590
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,000
wrote an amazing book um

591
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:13,039
that basically said most of the things

592
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:14,480
that we're discovering now the guy had a

593
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,240
crystal ball it's incredible it's

594
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:18,080
absolutely incredible so he he could

595
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:19,840
clearly see a lot of this stuff the

596
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:21,280
thing the the one thing he did not see

597
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:22,880
because at the time it didn't exist was

598
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:25,200
the computational aspect and the and the

599
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,000
really the link to um you know to to to

600
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:30,080
this as as a kind of neuroscience done

601
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,080
in another space in amorphous space that

602
00:20:37,029 --> 00:20:35,120
i think is is new but but uh

603
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:37,039
people had already had these ideas and

604
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:39,679
it needed the technology to really make

605
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:41,440
it to really prove them out and to

606
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,520
really see how it works

607
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,520
i'll be showing people some overlays of

608
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,200
some of the cells with the blue and

609
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:50,320
green and red voltage colors now voltage

610
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,559
is actually fairly abstract

611
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:54,799
for most people but what's not abstract

612
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,080
is something like an electron people can

613
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,799
fathom that that has a certain charge so

614
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:00,960
when someone is looking at these

615
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:02,559
videos of voltage gradients and they're

616
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:05,360
colored what is one seeing essentially

617
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,720
i'm asking you to explain what voltage

618
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:08,559
is simply but in terms of electrons in

619
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:09,600
terms of something that people can

620
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:11,280
understand yeah in order to understand

621
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,480
both you have to understand potential

622
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,840
and you also have to understand fields

623
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:14,960
technically if you want to understand

624
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:18,080
that correctly yeah um it's not so bad

625
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,520
you don't need to really do much with

626
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,760
fields in this one all because because

627
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,120
all of the things that i'm talking about

628
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:25,600
are really not fundamentally fields per

629
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,640
se they're just spatial distributions of

630
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:30,640
voltage gradients and and to understand

631
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,159
a voltage gradient it's it's pretty

632
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:35,039
simple instead of electrons life i mean

633
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:36,880
life uses electrons too but mostly the

634
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:38,720
kinds of stuff that we're talking about

635
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:40,400
uses a different charged particle they

636
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:41,280
use

637
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,120
potassium chloride sodium and protons

638
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,679
okay but otherwise same same deal and so

639
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:49,520
any cell has a cell membrane around it

640
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:51,600
the outer surface and it has these ion

641
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,039
channels which are these little portals

642
00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:55,600
these little proteins that can open and

643
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:57,840
close and let specific ions like

644
00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:00,159
potassium or sodium in and out these

645
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:02,080
potassium so potassium and sodium are

646
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,840
both positively charged so you can

647
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:05,520
imagine that

648
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,919
if you if you're a cell and you let a

649
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:09,760
bunch of your positively charged

650
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,159
potassiums out you can have an imbalance

651
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:14,480
more positives out here less positives

652
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:16,320
inside so now there's going to be a

653
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:19,039
voltage gradient basically a battery in

654
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:20,400
effect i mean that's basically what a

655
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:21,919
battery is right it's a it's a membrane

656
00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:23,760
with a with a charged disk balance on

657
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,679
across it that's that's all this is so

658
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:27,600
every cell is a battery it achieves that

659
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:30,559
by using energy to pump ions in a

660
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:32,799
particular direction and as a result you

661
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:34,159
if you were to take a tiny little volt

662
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,600
meter and put it across and people

663
00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:37,200
that's exactly what electrophysiologists

664
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:39,039
do you put it across that cell membrane

665
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:40,400
you're going to read a voltage of some

666
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:42,080
sort you know it's usually somewhere

667
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,919
between i don't know between 20

668
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:45,679
millivolts and and

669
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:47,679
70 millivolts something like that right

670
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:49,360
that's all it is and so now you imagine

671
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,280
doing that for every cell in the tissue

672
00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:53,039
that you're looking at

673
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,799
and you're just going to color every

674
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:56,640
cell depending on how big that voltage

675
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,480
difference is it's you're going to color

676
00:23:01,590 --> 00:23:00,080
it red if the voltage difference is

677
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:01,600
quite small that's called being

678
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:03,360
depolarized meaning there's just not

679
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,960
that much imbalance it's pretty much

680
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:06,240
it's quite simple you know the ions

681
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:07,840
inside and outside are pretty similar so

682
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:09,760
you're going to color those red and then

683
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:11,360
the ones that are really different where

684
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,960
there's a ton of

685
00:23:15,909 --> 00:23:14,320
positive charges that have been kicked

686
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:15,919
out so the cell is really pretty

687
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,320
negative that compared to the outside

688
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:20,320
space that you're going to color those

689
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:23,039
you're going to color those blue

690
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:24,240
and that's and that's what and that's

691
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:25,600
what you're looking at

692
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:26,960
great okay so now we have some

693
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,480
background as to what

694
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:30,080
so dna calls for proteins and you can

695
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:31,919
think of that as low level and then what

696
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:33,360
you're discovering and you and your

697
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,799
teams and the teams that you collaborate

698
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:36,400
with are discovering is that there's

699
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,159
these non-neural bioelectric signals and

700
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:40,559
those are somewhat like large-scale code

701
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:42,159
some of the implications are

702
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:44,240
regeneration of limbs barely touched on

703
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,480
that's okay we touched on generation of

704
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:48,080
actual so generation of eyes not

705
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:49,760
regeneration of eyes and then you were

706
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:52,320
about to get into cancer so do you mind

707
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:53,679
yeah um

708
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:54,960
so so

709
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:57,520
so the just just real quick to say the

710
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:00,880
analogy is that i i think a good analogy

711
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:03,039
is this the dna is what encodes the

712
00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:04,400
hardware

713
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,200
okay and the electrical dynamics are the

714
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:09,520
software now a lot of people get upset

715
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:10,640
at this because they say ah living

716
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,640
things are not like a computer so i am

717
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,480
certainly not claiming that living

718
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,320
things are like the kind of computers

719
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,000
that you and i use on a daily basis

720
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:20,000
these right this architecture is not

721
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:22,559
what life is using however the deeper

722
00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:24,080
concept from computer science which is

723
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,960
the idea of reprogrammable hardware and

724
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:28,799
the idea of software multi-layer

725
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:31,440
software where you could be programming

726
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:33,360
at the in the in machine code or you

727
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:35,279
could be looking for higher level

728
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,039
subroutines and higher level

729
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:39,360
languages that i think is quite quite

730
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,200
realistic and i think what we're looking

731
00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:43,919
for here is to understand basically to

732
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:45,360
to to find the

733
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:46,559
the best

734
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:47,600
um

735
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:49,600
the best representation of that software

736
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,400
so that we can manipulate it as uh as as

737
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:54,480
you know to to advantage basically and

738
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:56,000
and to understand how evolution

739
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:58,240
manipulates it and so and so the other

740
00:25:01,110 --> 00:24:59,279
you know you had asked for three

741
00:25:02,549 --> 00:25:01,120
examples so so there are three basic

742
00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:02,559
examples i wanted to give so so the

743
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:04,480
electric face was one there's a cancer

744
00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:06,159
example and then there's a planarian uh

745
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:08,480
flatworm regeneration example so the

746
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,400
cancer the cancer example would look

747
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,000
like this um

748
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:14,080
one of the things about

749
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:16,640
cancer the the the one way to think

750
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:19,679
about cancer is to ask the question

751
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:22,240
why is there ever anything but cancer in

752
00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:23,679
other words

753
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:25,520
individual cells like amoebas are

754
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,120
extremely competent on their own they

755
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,360
handle single cell level goals quite

756
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:31,760
well why do they ever get together to

757
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,919
form something like a kidney or a liver

758
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:35,840
because when you have when when there's

759
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:37,039
a cancer what you're seeing is a

760
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,480
defection from that process you're

761
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:40,320
seeing cells that normally should be

762
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,880
working on making a nice organ in store

763
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:44,799
up keeping a nice organ in an adult

764
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:46,159
instead of that they go off and they

765
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:48,640
basically revert to a single cell kind

766
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:51,039
of existence they they

767
00:25:54,070 --> 00:25:52,720
basically become like an amoeba they

768
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:54,080
treat the rest of the body as just

769
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:55,520
environment it's like external

770
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,279
environment so you can think of that

771
00:26:02,390 --> 00:25:59,200
that computational boundary between

772
00:26:04,149 --> 00:26:02,400
between self and world can shrink it can

773
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:04,159
grow when a bunch of amoebas a bunch of

774
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,760
amoeba-like cells get together and they

775
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,600
build something like an organ or a whole

776
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:09,200
body that that computational boundary

777
00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:11,039
grows but can also shrink because an

778
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:14,000
individual cell can say uh uh i'm i'm

779
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:15,600
not working on this anymore i'm just an

780
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,679
amoeba and i'm gonna do what amoebas do

781
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:19,440
what do they do they they become two

782
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:21,279
amoebas and two amoebas become four and

783
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:23,200
so on they over proliferate and they go

784
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:25,120
where life is good so they metastasize

785
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:26,799
to wherever they wherever they want to

786
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:29,760
go so that's so that's cancer so

787
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,200
so if you think about it that way that

788
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:33,039
that cancer is this is this like

789
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,720
defection from multicellular cooperation

790
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:39,679
you can you ask yourself okay so what is

791
00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:41,440
the process that normally keeps them

792
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,279
harnessed towards specific goals and

793
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,120
and so if you ask yourself what what

794
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:48,799
what what do we know that's a process

795
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,279
that harnesses individual competent

796
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:53,679
subunits towards larger scale goals

797
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:56,080
that's very clear that's that's uh the

798
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,159
neural like processing because you have

799
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:00,799
individual neurons which are cells

800
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:02,559
but you connect them together into a

801
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,960
network and this amazing computation

802
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,799
starts to take place that can do things

803
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,720
like plan for the future and have

804
00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:10,480
memories and have preferences and goals

805
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,880
on a large scale you know you as an

806
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:14,880
organism can have goals and memories

807
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,360
that your individual cells don't have so

808
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,200
so we know that electrical networks are

809
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:21,200
really good at binding

810
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:23,679
small competent subunits into larger

811
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:26,000
scale computational agents we do we we

812
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:27,360
take advantage of that in computer

813
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:28,960
science we take it evolution takes

814
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:32,159
advantage of it in in making neurons

815
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:34,000
so um so we asked the following question

816
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:35,760
okay could that be the basis of cancer

817
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,919
and now i must say that of course we're

818
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,440
not the first to have this idea okay

819
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,760
again harold burr um had this said this

820
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:42,960
in the 30s

821
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:44,399
but so we did we did three things we

822
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:46,880
said okay first of all when this process

823
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:49,760
happens can you see using the voltage

824
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:53,679
dyes can you see the cells defecting

825
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:56,159
from the electrical network and in fact

826
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,679
that's then in fact you can so what you

827
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:59,520
can what you can do is you before it

828
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,279
happens so so you can inject a human

829
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:03,120
oncogene which is going to form a tumor

830
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:06,320
in a tadpole you inject that into

831
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:07,200
um

832
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:09,840
you inject that into a uh

833
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:13,039
into a tadpole they make a um

834
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,640
they make a they make a you know it

835
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:16,880
makes a tumor and even before that tumor

836
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:20,960
becomes uh becomes apparent you can

837
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,200
uh you can see with a voltage die you

838
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:25,200
can see that those cells become become

839
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:26,960
highly depolarized they electrically

840
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:28,960
uncouple from the rest of the tissue and

841
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,559
they go on their way and they just treat

842
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:31,919
to them the rest of the animal is just

843
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:33,600
external environment at that point so

844
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:35,039
they become electrically uncoupled and

845
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,640
that's that's the first thing that that

846
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:38,640
oncogenes do is electrically isolate the

847
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:40,559
cell from its neighbors from that

848
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:43,440
collection of of signals that normally

849
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,360
tell the cell what to do in a larger

850
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,360
context so that's the first thing we did

851
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,600
the second thing we did we said well

852
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:51,760
if that if that's a potential cause of

853
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:52,720
cancer

854
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:54,559
could we

855
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:58,720
but just by disrupting the electrical

856
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,120
communication directly no no oncogenes

857
00:29:05,269 --> 00:29:03,200
no carcinogens no dna damage no

858
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:05,279
mutations nothing wrong with the cells

859
00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:08,320
that any molecular biology test could

860
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,440
see

861
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:11,279
and could we could we cause cancer

862
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:12,799
because because remember the standard

863
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:14,880
model in the field for years has been

864
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,960
that cancer is the cause of genetic

865
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:18,720
damage basically right that it's that

866
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:20,399
it's a genetic disruption that makes a

867
00:29:23,669 --> 00:29:22,240
rogue cell that has other mutations and

868
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:23,679
so on so we said fine no we're going to

869
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:25,279
take completely normal cells nothing

870
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:26,480
wrong with them and we're going to

871
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,480
simply prevent them from talking to

872
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:30,240
other cells electrically okay we're just

873
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:31,760
going to manipulate that and so we did

874
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:33,840
that and sure enough we made metastatic

875
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:36,480
metastatic melanoma in tadpoles so so

876
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:38,080
that tells you that you there doesn't

877
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:39,279
have to be anything wrong with the

878
00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:42,240
hardware in order to have cancer it can

879
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,399
be a purely physiological phenomenon it

880
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:46,399
can be caused at the software level

881
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:47,679
which a lot of people who study

882
00:29:51,669 --> 00:29:49,440
stress-induced cancers and things like

883
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:51,679
this they kind of already knew but but

884
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:53,200
but really the paradigm has been that

885
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:54,799
there has to be a genetic defect at the

886
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:56,880
at the root of this somewhere okay and

887
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,159
then the third thing we found which is

888
00:30:01,269 --> 00:30:00,159
of course the most exciting thing

889
00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:01,279
which is you can go in the opposite

890
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,200
direction you can you can inject a

891
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:05,200
really powerful human occaging like a

892
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:07,840
p53 mutation oncogene for those who are

893
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:09,360
listening it's just a gene that causes

894
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,000
cancer yeah an oncogene is a is a is a

895
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:14,559
mutation in a in the normal gene that

896
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:16,880
causes that that are that is that is

897
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,440
thought to cause uh cancer

898
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:21,840
transformation to cancer yeah okay so

899
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:23,919
you can inject that and then if you do

900
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:26,559
that into into a tadpole

901
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:28,480
if you at the same time inject an ion

902
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,840
channel that

903
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:32,159
forces the cell to remain in an

904
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,720
electrical state where it's connected to

905
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,880
its neighbors and it doesn't depolarize

906
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:38,480
then even though that oncogene is

907
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:40,880
blazingly strongly expressed there's no

908
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:42,640
there you you won't you won't have a you

909
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:44,399
won't have a tumor because you're

910
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:46,720
overriding that there's a hardware

911
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:48,399
problem but it doesn't matter because

912
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:50,480
you're overriding it and saying yeah i

913
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:51,840
know you want to depolarize but you

914
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:53,360
can't you have to stay connected to

915
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,399
these neighbors and you're just going to

916
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:56,640
be part of this and and and we can

917
00:31:03,590 --> 00:30:59,039
override that way a variety of different

918
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:05,190
okay so i was just having an analogy in

919
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,880
my head it's almost like imagine you

920
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:08,320
have these kids and they're misbehaved

921
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,760
so you can say well it's the kids who

922
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:11,279
are the problem and they cause havoc in

923
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,200
the house but if you have an adult who's

924
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:14,799
stern enough they can override the

925
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:16,720
misbehaved kids if you leave the kids

926
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:18,559
without the adult and the hustle bean

927
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:20,240
shambles in this analogy the adult is

928
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:21,679
like the electrical communication so you

929
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,679
can force that electrical communication

930
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,360
that standard adaptive electrical

931
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:27,360
communication

932
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:28,960
yeah yeah you can you can think of it

933
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:31,279
that way i mean the the the thing where

934
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,200
i think it it it breaks down a little

935
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,360
bit is that is that you we're not

936
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:37,919
introducing an extra element that keeps

937
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:40,159
everybody else in line right we're we're

938
00:31:44,710 --> 00:31:42,159
in effect it's like um

939
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:44,720
you know it's like it's like it's like

940
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:45,919
you have a bunch of kids that know what

941
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:47,760
to do and you've got one that's wearing

942
00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:49,840
uh you know dark glasses and you can't

943
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:51,519
see and he's causing all kinds of

944
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:52,720
trouble because you can't see what he's

945
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:54,559
doing well you can you can sort of you

946
00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:55,840
could put a camera on him or take the

947
00:31:59,830 --> 00:31:57,600
glasses off or something so that he just

948
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:59,840
goes right back into the into the

949
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,519
interactions with with the you know in

950
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:04,080
the in the with the rest of the uh

951
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:05,200
you know the rest of the group it's

952
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:06,640
about it's about communication it's

953
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:07,760
about

954
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,240
uh binding the individual competent

955
00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:12,880
subunits towards a larger goal your goal

956
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:14,799
is not simply to grow as much as you can

957
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:16,640
the way an amoeba is your goal is to

958
00:32:20,630 --> 00:32:19,039
build a hand or a liver or an eye or

959
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:20,640
something else it's really about the

960
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:22,799
scale up of goals and electrical

961
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:25,279
networks are great for this

962
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:26,880
does your work have any implications for

963
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:29,440
what it means to have an identity so

964
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,200
right now you were talking about cancer

965
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:33,360
as if it's dissociating from the larger

966
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:34,720
cells yeah and then there are gap

967
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:36,240
junctions which you've referenced in

968
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,240
your other work and they effectively

969
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:39,679
make an equivalence class between

970
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:42,240
signals that i generate as a cell or my

971
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,760
environment or signals from connected

972
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:45,360
cells i'm unable to tell the difference

973
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:47,679
between them yep

974
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:48,799
because i'm unable to tell the

975
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,000
difference between myself and my

976
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:51,840
neighbor it's as if i'm identified with

977
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,919
them so it has plenty of bearing at

978
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:55,679
least i see it has plenty of bearings

979
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,080
for what it means for the eye or the ego

980
00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,480
in a non-pejorative manner

981
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,000
so what are the implications of your

982
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:04,320
work for the concept of identity

983
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,000
yeah yeah no you you put your finger

984
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,880
exactly on it so so so two two years ago

985
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:10,480
i wrote this paper called on the

986
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:12,880
boundary of the self and it's exactly

987
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:15,519
this idea it's the way to to uh to

988
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:17,919
define what is a self at different

989
00:33:23,509 --> 00:33:21,200
scales and uh how does the boundary the

990
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:23,519
size of that self change okay or over

991
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:25,200
time and that's exactly the kind of

992
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:26,799
thing that you that you're talking about

993
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,039
it's having having communication

994
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:31,279
channels that partially wipe the

995
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,159
metadata on information so that i no

996
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,320
longer know whether it came from you or

997
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,559
or whether it came from me right gives

998
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:40,720
us a partial mind melt because now it's

999
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:43,120
really hard to keep an identity if i

1000
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,480
can't tell which are my memories and

1001
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:46,320
which are your memories it's really hard

1002
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:48,559
for us to keep uh to keep distinct

1003
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:50,960
identities we become partially unified

1004
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:52,720
and that's that's exactly the sort of

1005
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:55,519
process that evolution exploits to build

1006
00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:58,080
larger cells out of um small competent

1007
00:34:02,230 --> 00:33:59,440
ones

1008
00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:02,240
another astounding experiment of yours

1009
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:03,519
i'm not sure if i should be calling it

1010
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:04,799
an experiment was where you took skin

1011
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,159
cells of a frog and then it has

1012
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:08,560
locomotion can you outline what the heck

1013
00:34:10,869 --> 00:34:09,679
did you do there and why is that

1014
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,879
important

1015
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:12,079
yeah yeah no it's definitely an

1016
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:13,520
experiment um

1017
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:15,679
so so you're talking about our zenobots

1018
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,000
uh i think and

1019
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:20,480
the question was that the question that

1020
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:22,159
we're interested in addressing is is

1021
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:25,520
basically this um

1022
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,040
where do anatomical goals come from and

1023
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:31,119
in order to illustrate why that's even a

1024
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:32,399
good question i want to talk about

1025
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:34,000
plenaria for just a moment and then and

1026
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:35,200
then you'll see why this this is

1027
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:36,800
important for the xenobots

1028
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:37,760
um

1029
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:41,119
we are we are used to the fact that

1030
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:44,159
uh each species has a specific shape

1031
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:46,480
that is associated with it and that frog

1032
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,800
eggs make frogs and and zebra fish eggs

1033
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,560
make zebrafish and so on so we're kind

1034
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:52,639
of we're kind of used to that but

1035
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:55,919
the actual question of how do cellular

1036
00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:57,680
collectives decide what they're going to

1037
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,400
build and when do they stop building

1038
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:02,640
that's very much an open question

1039
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:05,119
and so so one way you can see how how

1040
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,880
far we are away from a good

1041
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:08,560
understanding of this is in in a very

1042
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:11,040
simple um very simple experiment

1043
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:12,079
uh

1044
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:14,000
there are there are around so so

1045
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:15,280
planaria are these flat worms that

1046
00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:16,880
regenerate when you cut them into pieces

1047
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:18,400
every piece builds whatever's missing

1048
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:20,240
and they regenerate okay that's that's

1049
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,920
plenary you can cut them into pieces and

1050
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:23,920
they every piece regenerates to a normal

1051
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:26,960
plenary so there are species of planaria

1052
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:29,839
that have round heads and those type

1053
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:32,800
those cells are really good at building

1054
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:35,119
a round head and then stopping so they

1055
00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:37,680
stop when a round head is complete okay

1056
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:39,440
then you got another species of plenaria

1057
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:41,040
that has a very pointy head a truck kind

1058
00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:43,359
of a triangular head and those cells are

1059
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,960
very good at point at making a

1060
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:46,560
triangular head when you cut it off it

1061
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:47,920
makes a triangular head and then it

1062
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:50,560
stops so i have a simple question if i

1063
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,920
take a bunch of the cells from the

1064
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:53,920
round-headed guy and i stick them into

1065
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:56,000
the body of the triangular guy and i let

1066
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:58,000
them sort of get you know get

1067
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:59,119
comfortable and sit around for a little

1068
00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:00,960
while then i cut the head off what head

1069
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,800
shape are we going to have are we going

1070
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:04,560
to have is one of the head shapes

1071
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,160
dominant to the other are we going to

1072
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:08,640
have an intermediate shape or are we

1073
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,240
going to have a planarian that never

1074
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,400
stops regenerating because neither set

1075
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:14,320
of cells is ever happy about the shape

1076
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,760
they're never that stop condition is

1077
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:17,920
never said okay so now so now look the

1078
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:19,200
the important thing is not the answer

1079
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:21,119
the the important thing is

1080
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:23,040
despite all of the

1081
00:36:27,109 --> 00:36:24,960
uh papers in nature and science about

1082
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:27,119
the molecular pathways of control of

1083
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:28,960
stem cells and planaria and all these

1084
00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:31,040
kinds of high resolution transcriptomics

1085
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,960
and all this stuff there is not a single

1086
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:34,079
model in the field that makes a

1087
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,000
prediction on this experiment

1088
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:38,400
why because every piece of data out

1089
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:41,200
there now addresses the hardware that

1090
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,680
enables individual cells to do cell

1091
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:45,440
things fine

1092
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:48,079
but we have no understanding of what

1093
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:49,920
happens when the cells join together

1094
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:52,480
into a larger scale self that makes

1095
00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:54,400
large scale decisions about head shape

1096
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:56,079
head number things like that in

1097
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,000
morphospace that navigates morph space

1098
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,680
by making these large scale decisions we

1099
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,599
have absolutely no idea how those

1100
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:03,839
algorithms work and the fact that we

1101
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:06,320
know how the stem cells work and have

1102
00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:09,040
lots of molecular biology about that

1103
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,320
really hasn't affected this other

1104
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:12,400
question much at all we we just have no

1105
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,079
no models for this because it's too

1106
00:37:19,109 --> 00:37:16,400
computationally complex or some other in

1107
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:19,119
principle reason i don't think it's well

1108
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:20,400
no i don't think it's because it's too

1109
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:21,839
complex although it is too complex to

1110
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:24,320
calculate out directly i think it's

1111
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:26,640
because conceptually we haven't found

1112
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:27,920
the right

1113
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,440
think about how cellular collectives

1114
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:33,359
make decisions this is this is a

1115
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,720
collective intelligence problem this is

1116
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:36,480
not a molecular biology problem we've

1117
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:38,000
been thinking about this as a molecular

1118
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:39,760
biology problem that's not what this is

1119
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:42,480
this is this is trying to read the mind

1120
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:44,960
of a collective intelligence now people

1121
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:46,720
think of collective intelligences as

1122
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:48,960
exotic things like anthills and and you

1123
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:50,480
know bb colonies and things like this

1124
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:52,320
these are collective intelligences

1125
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:54,880
um i want to remind everybody that we

1126
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,800
are all collective intelligences we are

1127
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:58,640
all bags of cells

1128
00:38:02,230 --> 00:38:00,960
no there is no cognitive agent that is

1129
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,240
like this

1130
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:04,400
single diamond that's that's not made of

1131
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:05,920
parts that's sort of unchanging we're

1132
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:08,000
all made of parts any cognitive agent is

1133
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:10,480
made of parts and so your goal is to ask

1134
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:12,960
how do those parts bind together to make

1135
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:15,280
decisions as a collective individual

1136
00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:16,560
cells don't know what a head is they

1137
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,320
don't know what round round means they

1138
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:19,920
don't know what triangular means right

1139
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:21,839
but the collective sure does and so the

1140
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:23,680
collective is able to navigate morph of

1141
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,960
space in this way that we don't

1142
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:26,480
understand the algorithm so if we don't

1143
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:28,240
even we don't even know how to um how to

1144
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:31,119
think about this okay so

1145
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:34,960
um so so so this this is very isomorphic

1146
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:37,280
to problems in neuroscience to problems

1147
00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:39,920
in in artificial intelligence it's uh

1148
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:41,839
trying to understand the scaling of of

1149
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,599
minds and in in trying to do that we we

1150
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,520
pose the following problem

1151
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:49,839
okay standard

1152
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:52,320
tadpoles make you know standard frog

1153
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:54,240
eggs make it make frog embryos and

1154
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,920
everybody's kind of used to that even

1155
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:58,079
even though you know you can remind i

1156
00:39:01,750 --> 00:38:59,760
always remind my students did you

1157
00:39:03,349 --> 00:39:01,760
realize that that if i gave you the frog

1158
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:03,359
genome you couldn't tell me what a frog

1159
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:04,800
looked like right

1160
00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:06,640
you could compare it to other genomes

1161
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,760
yeah you didn't know what but that was

1162
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:09,040
that's cheating you know

1163
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:11,599
so so so okay so we asked we asked a

1164
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:12,800
simple question

1165
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,200
where does the goal of making a frog or

1166
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:17,280
tadpole really come from and how

1167
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,359
hardwired is that so what we did was we

1168
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,960
took some skin

1169
00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:22,800
that we scraped off of an early frog

1170
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:25,599
embryo we set it aside in a different

1171
00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:28,240
environment and we said okay now you're

1172
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:29,760
free to sort of reboot your

1173
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,160
multicellularity you're here we've we've

1174
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:34,800
we've relieved all of the constraints of

1175
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,040
the rest of the embryo you're no longer

1176
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:39,200
getting constructive signals from from

1177
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:40,960
from endoderm and from mesoderm from all

1178
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:43,040
these other things you're no longer

1179
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,119
subject to all these other signals

1180
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:47,119
what are you going to do what

1181
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:48,480
what's what's your new what you know

1182
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:50,320
what what do you want to do and there's

1183
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:51,520
a couple of

1184
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:52,560
different options that could have

1185
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:54,800
happened the cells could have

1186
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,520
died they could have wandered off and

1187
00:40:01,270 --> 00:39:59,359
and sort of when each cell go its own

1188
00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:01,280
way they could have made a monolayer of

1189
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:02,960
cells in a dish the way you get in cell

1190
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,720
culture all kinds of things they could

1191
00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:06,079
have done they didn't do any of that

1192
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,200
what they did instead was to combine

1193
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,000
together and to form a little ball

1194
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:14,400
that grew cilia these little motile

1195
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:16,400
hairs on the outer surface

1196
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:17,359
now

1197
00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:19,359
cilia are normally sitting on the

1198
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,200
outside of embryos and they're there to

1199
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:23,200
kind of redistribute the mucus around

1200
00:40:27,349 --> 00:40:25,280
and to you know make the pathogens sort

1201
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:27,359
of keep moving and not stick to the skin

1202
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:30,160
they're used to they're used to um

1203
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:32,160
keep the surface of the of the tadpole

1204
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:32,960
clean

1205
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,000
uh but instead these cells basically

1206
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:39,119
repurposed that genetically encoded

1207
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,319
hardware the cilia themselves are

1208
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:42,240
genetically encoded all the proteins

1209
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:44,000
necessary to make a psyllium are in the

1210
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:46,160
genome and they so so they have that

1211
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:49,200
already but what they did was they

1212
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:52,960
assembled themselves into a new um

1213
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:55,119
into a new kind of uh a new kind of

1214
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,800
architecture this this this spherical

1215
00:41:00,309 --> 00:40:58,800
thing which and and then and then they

1216
00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:00,319
use the cilia to propel themselves so

1217
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,520
they started running around they started

1218
00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:03,280
moving around and so we have these

1219
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:05,680
amazing videos of them moving around

1220
00:41:10,069 --> 00:41:07,520
singly moving around in groups

1221
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:10,079
interacting we're going through a maze

1222
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:12,240
going back and forth in various

1223
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:14,319
configurations they have all kinds of

1224
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,000
behaviors they have all kinds they can

1225
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:18,400
regenerate if you if you cut them

1226
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,000
almost entirely in half they will like

1227
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:22,640
join back and and and make a

1228
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:25,040
you know make a uh uh

1229
00:41:28,309 --> 00:41:27,280
make a make a zenobot again

1230
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:28,319
and

1231
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:34,319
way we don't know their cognitive

1232
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:36,400
capacities yet okay we don't we we're

1233
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:38,319
only beginning now to start to see can

1234
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,760
they learn can they do they have

1235
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,520
preferences all these kinds of things we

1236
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:43,200
don't know yet but the coolest thing

1237
00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:44,720
about them is that to my knowledge

1238
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:46,079
they're the only

1239
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:48,480
creature on the planet that doesn't

1240
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:49,920
really have

1241
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:52,800
an evolutionary backstory the individual

1242
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,960
cells do okay the cells have a long

1243
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:57,119
evolutionary history on earth

1244
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:59,280
but they were selected for that genome

1245
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:00,640
was selected for the ability of these

1246
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:02,319
cells to sit quietly on the outside of

1247
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:04,240
the frog and keep out the pathogens they

1248
00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:05,920
were not selected specifically to be

1249
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:07,839
able to get together and run around in a

1250
00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:10,000
separate in a separate configuration

1251
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:11,839
away from the embryo where did that all

1252
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,319
come from and in fact one of the one of

1253
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:16,880
the things about it is people people

1254
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:18,160
often say well you know when are you

1255
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:18,960
going to buy when you're going to

1256
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,560
engineer these things you know knock in

1257
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:22,800
various synthetic biology circuits right

1258
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,880
make them do things and we absolutely

1259
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:27,200
will do that but my goal before we do

1260
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:30,000
any of that my goal was to show people

1261
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,160
what what can happen while the diversity

1262
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:34,240
that can happen from the exact same

1263
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:37,119
genome with no manipulations whatsoever

1264
00:42:40,390 --> 00:42:38,880
because if you because the thing about

1265
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,400
these cinnabots is they just have a

1266
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:42,240
normal frog genome they have no other

1267
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:43,760
they have no transgenes no genomic

1268
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,440
editing there's nothing different about

1269
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:47,280
them there what we're seeing is the

1270
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:49,359
plasticity of

1271
00:42:53,109 --> 00:42:51,200
of this collective intelligence that is

1272
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:53,119
able to make a new functional

1273
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:55,599
proto-organism in a novel way out of the

1274
00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:57,280
exact same parts

1275
00:43:01,589 --> 00:42:59,280
so there's no genomic editing there did

1276
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,599
you manipulate its morphogenetic code

1277
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:03,839
the electrical signals at all not yet no

1278
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:05,200
we're going to we're certainly going to

1279
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,880
that's all to come no at this point we

1280
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,720
haven't done that this is this is this

1281
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:11,119
is purely native plasticity this is what

1282
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,400
these cells already know how to do we we

1283
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:16,560
we scrape them we scrape them off of the

1284
00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:19,520
frog and we put them in little holes the

1285
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,520
little little sort of depressions

1286
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:23,280
and

1287
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,880
i should back up there are two types of

1288
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,400
cinnabots okay the one i'm describing

1289
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:28,800
now we literally did almost nothing you

1290
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:30,400
scrape them off the embryo you set them

1291
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:32,480
aside and you say fine now liberated

1292
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:33,760
from all the signals that would have

1293
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:37,040
turned you into uh various uh various

1294
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,880
things what do you want to do and this

1295
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:40,960
is what they do on their own

1296
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,560
there's another type of zen about which

1297
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:44,160
is actually the one we started with

1298
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:45,839
where we sculpted them a little bit we

1299
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:46,800
um

1300
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,079
and this is by the way this is all work

1301
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,480
done in in collaboration with uh with

1302
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,480
bongard lab at university of vermont and

1303
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:54,240
sam kriegman did did all the

1304
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,839
computational model modeling for this

1305
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:57,040
and then um

1306
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:59,200
doug blackiston did the uh did all the

1307
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:01,200
all the microsurgery and everything we

1308
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:03,359
we sculpted them a bit to give them legs

1309
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,359
so you basically just it's subtractive

1310
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:07,040
like subtractive sculpting you just cut

1311
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:08,319
away some stuff so that you're you're

1312
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:09,680
left with kind of an ottoman that has

1313
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,079
like four or four legs you know and uh

1314
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:13,839
and and we and and we put in a little

1315
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:15,680
bit of a little bit of of muscle and

1316
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:17,359
then it learned to walk so so the muscle

1317
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,400
would contract and the thing would

1318
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:20,160
basically walk along that's that's the

1319
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:22,400
first set of xenobots we made the second

1320
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:24,400
one has no muscle it has no nerve it

1321
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:26,560
only it's only skin and those can get

1322
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,280
around perfectly well on their own using

1323
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:31,520
these cilia and their our interventions

1324
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,280
are extremely minimal

1325
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:35,040
it's important that it was taken off of

1326
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:36,800
embryos or it doesn't matter if you took

1327
00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:38,160
it off of a frog much later in

1328
00:44:40,870 --> 00:44:39,520
development

1329
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:40,880
um

1330
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:43,280
we haven't we haven't taken it off a

1331
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:45,839
frog later in development but we we have

1332
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:47,280
we have other evidence that i can't

1333
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:49,839
really talk about yet that uh suggests

1334
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:51,440
that it doesn't matter that it's a frog

1335
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:52,560
and it doesn't matter that it's an

1336
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:55,040
embryo we have we have we we have data

1337
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:56,800
on adult cells now

1338
00:45:02,309 --> 00:44:59,440
what occurs to me is

1339
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:03,750
if this has implications for what it

1340
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:04,800
means to be

1341
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:06,960
alive in the colloquial sense so forget

1342
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:08,560
about in the biological sense so we

1343
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:10,160
think of our skin as dead and our bones

1344
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:11,920
are dead and perhaps dead isn't the

1345
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:13,440
right term but let's say animated

1346
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:16,160
animated with life with vim with brielle

1347
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:17,920
yet you showed that somehow you can

1348
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,240
still trigger vim and brio

1349
00:45:23,829 --> 00:45:22,079
not via this electrical manipulation i

1350
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:23,839
thought it was that but does this have

1351
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:25,280
any bearing as to what we consider to be

1352
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:27,680
alive or it's a dif or it's a are

1353
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:29,359
unrelated

1354
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:32,000
um i'll tell you that uh one of the

1355
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:34,319
things that this kind of work does is

1356
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:36,800
really illustrate the

1357
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:39,200
insufficiency of our vocabulary so

1358
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:41,520
people often argue for example i mean

1359
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:43,280
alive is a funny thing i don't i don't

1360
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,079
actually know what alive really i don't

1361
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:48,000
have a good definition the these cells

1362
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:49,839
and these organisms are for sure alive

1363
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:51,520
in the traditional sense i mean the the

1364
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:52,960
cells are alive there's no there's no

1365
00:45:56,790 --> 00:45:54,800
getting around that but but but people

1366
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:56,800
will often argue for example are they

1367
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,720
robots are they organisms are they uh

1368
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:02,640
you know these are they machines these

1369
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:05,359
kinds of things and and and we we josh

1370
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:06,880
bongard and i wrote a paper addressing

1371
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:08,400
this question basically pointing out

1372
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:09,200
that

1373
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,880
useless now it was it was great 50 years

1374
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:16,960
ago when you could

1375
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:18,880
you when when it was really easy to tell

1376
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:21,280
apart machines that were that were that

1377
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:23,520
were boring predictable they were they

1378
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:24,400
were

1379
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:26,720
designed right and living things which

1380
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:29,119
were surprising and interesting and warm

1381
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,920
and wet and um and evolved those things

1382
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:34,319
are now so intermixed

1383
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:36,960
that with modern with modern techniques

1384
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:39,359
of digital evolution and bioengineering

1385
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:41,200
and synthetic morphology that

1386
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:43,359
distinction does not exist anymore and

1387
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:45,040
so it used to be that you can sort of

1388
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:46,400
like you could knock on something and if

1389
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:48,079
you hear a hollow metallic sound and you

1390
00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:49,920
say ah yeah that that came off a factory

1391
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:51,599
that's a machine and i'm you know

1392
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:54,160
morally um uh okay with taking it apart

1393
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:55,680
and doing whatever i want with it and if

1394
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:57,200
you were to do this and and it was sort

1395
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:59,200
of so soft and squishy then you would

1396
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:01,200
say that's evolved and it's living and i

1397
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,359
better i better be nice to it that right

1398
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:06,000
though that easy distinction is just

1399
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:08,240
that doesn't exist anymore so we need we

1400
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:09,920
need a better vocabulary i mean they're

1401
00:47:13,030 --> 00:47:11,599
they're alive for sure but if you want

1402
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,040
to ask questions about whether they are

1403
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:15,760
machines or robots or living organisms

1404
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:18,640
or that that all that stretches the

1405
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:20,559
vocabulary which is no longer up to the

1406
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,839
task

1407
00:47:25,829 --> 00:47:23,680
is there a relationship between

1408
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:25,839
perception and this morphogenetic code

1409
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:27,040
and i know i keep using that word

1410
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:29,520
morphogenetic code and yeah forgive me

1411
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,880
if i'm abusing the terminology but is

1412
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:32,319
there a relationship between perception

1413
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:34,480
and morphogenetic code i'll give you my

1414
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:36,559
reasoning behind it right now what i see

1415
00:47:40,230 --> 00:47:38,240
is i recognize a monitor i see a

1416
00:47:42,549 --> 00:47:40,240
microphone i see you you have eyebrows i

1417
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:42,559
see large scale structures then the

1418
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:43,680
question is well is there anything

1419
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:46,640
special about your eyebrows

1420
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:48,079
well

1421
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:49,760
other than you're an attractive man

1422
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:50,720
let's say

1423
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:53,119
physically speaking physics would say

1424
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:54,160
there's nothing special about this

1425
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:55,680
microphone or 10 percent of the

1426
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:57,680
microphone or 10 of the microphone plus

1427
00:48:01,910 --> 00:48:00,480
the air slightly around it it's more a

1428
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:01,920
pragmatic matter

1429
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:04,000
that it's a practical that it matters

1430
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,880
that i can use this

1431
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,160
however when you're talking about this

1432
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:10,720
non-neural bioelectric code it's as if

1433
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,200
these large-scale structures that we

1434
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:15,119
recognize as salient and significant

1435
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:16,640
such as a low resolution facet like a

1436
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,319
child's drawings of eyebrows nose head

1437
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:20,000
placement and so on that those are there

1438
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:22,880
in the code so somehow what we perceive

1439
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:25,520
is also what is encoded

1440
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:27,119
and i'm curious well is that is there a

1441
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:29,200
confounding factor that influences both

1442
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,720
does the morphogenetic code influence

1443
00:48:35,109 --> 00:48:33,040
our perceptions

1444
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:35,119
perhaps i can give a better analogy if i

1445
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:36,640
a computer science analogy where we have

1446
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:38,800
machine code and then you have like

1447
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,079
what builds a top that builds the top

1448
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,800
library is jquery and on html5 and so on

1449
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:44,400
so we have a function bounce which takes

1450
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,000
an image and bounces it or texts and

1451
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:48,400
bounces it or one that plays mpeg so the

1452
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:50,880
question is well what makes bounce

1453
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:53,839
or mpeg playing more fundamental well to

1454
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:55,839
me i would say nothing it's us it's what

1455
00:49:02,950 --> 00:48:58,240
we use however it's strange that

1456
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:02,960
objectively there's this code for it

1457
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:05,119
yeah yeah um well there's a there's a

1458
00:49:10,390 --> 00:49:07,760
lot there and what you just said uh

1459
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:10,400
certainly um perception is a part of

1460
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:13,119
this whole process because in order to

1461
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:15,599
have this kind of um

1462
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:18,400
anatomical homeostasis where

1463
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:22,000
you you uh you you you you damage in you

1464
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:23,520
know an organism like a salamander which

1465
00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:25,440
can regenerate most of its organs or a

1466
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:26,800
planarian which can regenerate all of

1467
00:49:31,109 --> 00:49:29,280
its organs you you damage it and then it

1468
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,119
grows with the right thing and then it

1469
00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:33,440
stops when it's done that loop that

1470
00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:35,440
homeostatic loop has to have a

1471
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:37,839
perception component because it has to

1472
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,079
be able to recognize when it's done so

1473
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,319
it has to be able to perceive am i a

1474
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:44,480
correct planarian or not and if i'm not

1475
00:49:47,349 --> 00:49:46,079
i'm going to keep remodeling until i am

1476
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,359
and at that point so it's an error

1477
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:49,599
minimization scheme and in order to

1478
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:51,680
achieve that error minimization you have

1479
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:53,440
to be able to perceive around you in

1480
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:55,680
anatomical space and to say am i in the

1481
00:49:59,349 --> 00:49:57,520
right region of space here is my head

1482
00:50:02,230 --> 00:49:59,359
and the right size is do do i have the

1483
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:02,240
right number of eyes um all of that

1484
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:05,599
you need to perceive that and people um

1485
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:09,040
people like grossberg uh and uh at bu

1486
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:10,960
had written years ago about the

1487
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:13,119
relationship between retinal information

1488
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:14,800
processing and development and i

1489
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,480
actually think he was he was really on

1490
00:50:20,870 --> 00:50:18,240
to something in the sense that i think

1491
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,880
most epithelia are basically like a big

1492
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:22,800
retina and that what they're doing is

1493
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:24,319
they're they're they're constantly

1494
00:50:28,950 --> 00:50:27,040
surveilling the rest of the animal

1495
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:28,960
or the rest of the body

1496
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,359
and making decisions about large-scale

1497
00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:34,079
features so not just individual pixels

1498
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:35,839
but things like in the in the retina

1499
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:37,200
you'd be talking about edge detection

1500
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:38,240
motion

1501
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:39,680
things like that and that's what they're

1502
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:41,040
doing they're looking at large scale

1503
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:42,800
features that individual cells cannot

1504
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,319
detect so

1505
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:45,920
one way to look at this is that we have

1506
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:48,079
a precedent for this from neuroscience

1507
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:49,760
and from visual from the science of

1508
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:52,160
visual processing the probably the more

1509
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:54,000
accurate way to look at it is yeah that

1510
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,760
guess where the retina learned its

1511
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,440
tricks right and guess where where

1512
00:51:02,390 --> 00:50:59,280
brains learn their visual processing

1513
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,400
tricks by far more ancient mechanisms of

1514
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,800
cellular groups navigating morphospace

1515
00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:06,240
that that's that's what it used to be

1516
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:08,480
before it became the before it became

1517
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:10,079
vision basically

1518
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:11,680
do you believe that the problem of

1519
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:13,760
senescence to the degree can be called a

1520
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,640
problem is largely a disruption of

1521
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,319
this electrical blueprint rather than

1522
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:20,240
oxidative stress and damage to dna and

1523
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:22,559
so on that or telomeric length that

1524
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:25,040
people think

1525
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:28,079
um i don't have any evidence yet that

1526
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:29,760
there's a bioelectric component to this

1527
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:31,359
i mean i suspect there is but but we

1528
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:32,720
don't have any evidence on it we haven't

1529
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:34,960
really worked on aging per se

1530
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:36,880
i will say that i don't think it's

1531
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:39,040
anything as fundamental as

1532
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:41,680
uh this kind of like thermodynamic decay

1533
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:43,119
or anything like that because the

1534
00:51:48,549 --> 00:51:45,680
planaria are immortal they don't have a

1535
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,559
a life span limit they live forever and

1536
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:50,400
so they are telling us that it's

1537
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:53,440
possible to be a complex regenerative

1538
00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:56,319
organism with uh learning capacity and

1539
00:52:01,270 --> 00:51:59,119
so on and not age so so so it's clearly

1540
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,280
possible so so the rest is details right

1541
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,040
the rest is i i don't think it's

1542
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:05,359
anything as fundamental as

1543
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,520
the the the theories that say well look

1544
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,119
when you copy things you inevitably make

1545
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,720
mistakes so eventually stuff whereas it

1546
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:13,119
wears out if that were true

1547
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:15,119
you wouldn't have plenary so so i don't

1548
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:16,160
think i don't think it's anything like

1549
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:17,280
that i think it's something much more

1550
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:20,400
contingent much more specific uh and and

1551
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:22,480
thus i i'm optimistic that we can

1552
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,400
overcome it so there's some work you're

1553
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,640
outlining in a previous talk with uh as

1554
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:28,160
i think it was a couple years ago at the

1555
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:29,520
time it was an undergraduate her name

1556
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:31,040
was maya though i don't recall her last

1557
00:52:35,349 --> 00:52:33,839
name and she changed between three types

1558
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:35,359
of planaria head

1559
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:36,319
like

1560
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:39,200
i think it was felina mediterranean doro

1561
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:40,640
i don't recall how to pronounce it but

1562
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:41,839
there were about tens of millions of

1563
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:44,319
years apart evolutionarily and that to

1564
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:45,040
me

1565
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:46,880
implies that there

1566
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:48,319
perhaps our structures that are

1567
00:52:51,589 --> 00:52:50,640
unfathomably submerged in us from our

1568
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:51,599
past

1569
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,720
and then i'm

1570
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:54,079
curious if there's a relationship

1571
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,760
between that

1572
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:57,119
between these

1573
00:53:01,030 --> 00:52:59,200
let's say these electric blueprints even

1574
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:01,040
though so whatever these electric

1575
00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:03,119
blueprints and union archetypes to go

1576
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:05,119
off on a huge speculative jump is the

1577
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:06,720
relationship between them

1578
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:08,480
boy uh that's that's

1579
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,720
that's a good that's a great question um

1580
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:12,480
i think that uh

1581
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:15,440
if if one were to

1582
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,240
if

1583
00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:18,480
let's run it backwards let's say let's

1584
00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:19,440
say that

1585
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:21,760
we underst we we have a conception of

1586
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:24,000
jungian archetypes for

1587
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:26,160
neuroscience and psychology

1588
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:28,640
and now somebody could say yeah but

1589
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:30,880
you're saying that all of all of you

1590
00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:33,359
know you know neuro neuro psychology

1591
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,200
comes from earlier

1592
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:37,200
somatic bioelectrics what would the

1593
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,280
jungian what would that look like then

1594
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:41,280
in that right in in that case what would

1595
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:43,119
the jungian archetypes look like in this

1596
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:44,720
other pre-neural

1597
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:47,119
type of of bioelectrics because we do

1598
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:49,119
this all the time we we ask things like

1599
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:51,359
what does memory look like before it was

1600
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:53,200
brain memory what does

1601
00:53:57,349 --> 00:53:55,599
bistable visual illusions look like

1602
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,359
before they were before there were

1603
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:59,040
brains all of these things that we see

1604
00:54:02,630 --> 00:54:00,720
in neuroscience you can ask what the

1605
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:02,640
what the older somatic equivalent look

1606
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:04,079
like so you can do the same thing here

1607
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:05,359
it's an interesting question i've never

1608
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:06,880
thought about it that way but you can

1609
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,240
you can ask that question if you ask

1610
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:10,559
that question you get to exactly the

1611
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:11,680
kind of thing you're talking about and

1612
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:13,760
what i would say is well probably in

1613
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,680
morphospace there are these stable

1614
00:54:19,349 --> 00:54:17,599
attractors corresponding to different

1615
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:19,359
types of shapes of heads different

1616
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:21,440
numbers of eyes different planaria body

1617
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:23,520
plans different all different kinds of

1618
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,160
things and what you can do is you can

1619
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:28,240
dial in those different

1620
00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:31,280
uh stable attractors by by in in the

1621
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:33,359
state space of the electric circuit by

1622
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:36,400
by shifting that electric circuit state

1623
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,680
so uh yeah i think i think that's a fair

1624
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:41,200
i think that's a that's that's a totally

1625
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:43,680
fair way to think about it

1626
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,240
your work is so

1627
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:48,240
it's like to me it's like the discovery

1628
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:49,760
of dna

1629
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,160
and maybe you're too modest to accept

1630
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:54,960
that as a compliment but i see it as

1631
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:58,000
as that seminal and i wanna well

1632
00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:59,760
i'm gonna put this out there i'm gonna

1633
00:55:02,950 --> 00:55:01,200
say in the beginning i think this guy's

1634
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,960
gonna win a nobel prize

1635
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:04,400
he has not said that like this is not

1636
00:55:07,349 --> 00:55:05,760
him saying that i'm saying that well

1637
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:07,359
thank you so much yeah that's that's

1638
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:09,040
that's very kind um there are lots of

1639
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:10,319
people i mean i i think it's important

1640
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:12,799
to say that uh

1641
00:55:17,109 --> 00:55:14,799
yeah it's not none of my friend right

1642
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,119
now well it's on on two levels so so so

1643
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:19,359
first of all none of this uh came out of

1644
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:20,720
thin air i didn't think of any of this

1645
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:23,760
stuff just you know from nothing i i i i

1646
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:27,520
built this these ideas uh on on on many

1647
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:30,880
other ideas of of really uh kind of uh

1648
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:33,119
really pioneering folks that work for

1649
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:35,040
years and many of them um didn't really

1650
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:37,280
get uh you know didn't get a lot of uh

1651
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:38,799
acceptance from the community so that's

1652
00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:40,240
that's important to say is that is that

1653
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:42,160
there's a lot of that out there and uh

1654
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:43,359
and of course the people in our lab

1655
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:45,760
right the the postdocs and and and for

1656
00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:47,599
phd students and techs who do the work i

1657
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:49,359
mean it's certainly not not just me

1658
00:55:52,069 --> 00:55:50,559
doing all this work there are a lot of

1659
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:52,079
people in this field and a lot of people

1660
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,880
in my group so um lots of people um

1661
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:56,880
contribute to push this all forward

1662
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,839
we'll get to the audience questions

1663
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:01,280
okay so this one comes from rupert

1664
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,559
sheldrake

1665
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:03,920
how does he think

1666
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:08,480
morphogenetic fields relates to mine

1667
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:10,400
referring to rupert

1668
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:13,119
yeah uh interesting question um

1669
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:14,559
so

1670
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:17,440
basically our morphogenetic fields that

1671
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:18,799
we work on

1672
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:22,079
uh are completely physical in other

1673
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:25,040
words they take place entirely within

1674
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:26,480
the body of the organism they're

1675
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:28,319
generated by the cells we can measure

1676
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:29,440
them using

1677
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:32,000
current technology

1678
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:34,319
i don't know if that's true of the kinds

1679
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:37,280
of things that rupert is talking about

1680
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,200
i kind of suspect that those would have

1681
00:56:44,470 --> 00:56:41,440
to have quite a bit different properties

1682
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:44,480
but just to be clear our fields are

1683
00:56:48,230 --> 00:56:46,319
uh and in fact in fact the things that

1684
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:48,240
we deal with are strictly speaking not

1685
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:50,799
even fields right so so we work with

1686
00:56:56,069 --> 00:56:52,799
spatial distributions of resting

1687
00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:56,079
potentials so it's not clear to me that

1688
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:57,280
these are really fields in the

1689
00:57:02,230 --> 00:57:00,240
mathematical sense of of the word field

1690
00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:02,240
but these are distributions of

1691
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:04,880
electrical potentials of living cells in

1692
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:06,880
in a particular body so they are

1693
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:08,079
they're they're very physical they're

1694
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:10,079
local they're you know kind of quite

1695
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:11,520
quite traditional distributions of

1696
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:13,040
voltage

1697
00:57:16,710 --> 00:57:14,720
another application that i've heard you

1698
00:57:18,710 --> 00:57:16,720
mentioned though it was i don't know if

1699
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,720
it was more on the speculative side or

1700
00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:20,640
if you've developed this

1701
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:23,119
it was some organism of the potential of

1702
00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:24,319
creating some organism that

1703
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:26,720
spontaneously and temperamentally goes

1704
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:28,160
out and cleans up the environment it's

1705
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,040
engineered to remove certain toxins

1706
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:33,599
can you speak more about that

1707
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:35,920
yeah that's probably was referring to

1708
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,280
our zenobots so we have this uh

1709
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:42,079
this technology where we're we're

1710
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,760
creating synthetic living

1711
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:45,520
proto-organisms made in this in this

1712
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:48,000
case made of frog skin so these are frog

1713
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:49,359
skin cells that in different

1714
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,119
environments self-organized to be these

1715
00:57:55,349 --> 00:57:53,119
these little motile creatures

1716
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:55,359
and at least one of many possible

1717
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:57,760
applications in the future is to program

1718
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,880
them for some sort of collection

1719
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,720
tasks so that they would go out and

1720
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:04,400
maybe collect

1721
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:07,359
useful useful molecules or maybe they

1722
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:09,680
would clean up toxins maybe they would

1723
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:12,160
detect various various other chemicals

1724
00:58:15,510 --> 00:58:13,280
in the environment that you would want

1725
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,520
to know about so these are all potential

1726
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,920
uh applications of of the practical sort

1727
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:19,599
of use of these kinds of synthetic

1728
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:20,960
living machines

1729
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:22,400
you mentioned quite a few times that

1730
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:24,319
it's important when you're dealing with

1731
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,480
the manipulation of this electric

1732
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:28,720
field or voltage gradient that you don't

1733
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:31,119
use external electric fields you

1734
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:33,040
actually manipulate the cellular ion

1735
00:58:38,150 --> 00:58:36,240
channels directly yeah okay so then i

1736
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:38,160
was wondering does this mean you know

1737
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:40,240
how some people say 5g

1738
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:43,200
that we should be scared of 5g because

1739
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:45,440
well for various reasons

1740
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,799
but then other people say it's

1741
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:48,720
non-ionizings and that's and that's all

1742
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:50,240
that matters well is that all that

1743
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:52,960
matters is there some validity to being

1744
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:56,000
concerned about 5g

1745
00:59:01,270 --> 00:58:58,880
um so so i think i think both of those

1746
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:01,280
viewpoints are a little bit off and the

1747
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:04,640
truth is somewhere in the middle so so

1748
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:06,079
let's let's just start with the ionizing

1749
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,319
business so so i i think the evidence is

1750
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:10,559
quite clear that electromagnetic

1751
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:12,720
radiation does not need to be ionizing

1752
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:14,640
and in fact it is not to be particularly

1753
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:17,440
strong in order to in some way affect

1754
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,680
living cells so living things so living

1755
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:21,040
things are sensitive to all sorts of

1756
00:59:25,990 --> 00:59:23,760
electromagnetic radiation uh in many

1757
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:26,000
ways that do not require ionization or

1758
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,920
heat or anything like that at the same

1759
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:29,200
time

1760
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,160
i think i don't have any reason to be

1761
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:34,000
concerned about 5g first of all the

1762
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,440
kinds of things that we study so these

1763
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:37,440
bioelectric signaling

1764
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:40,079
pathways are not particularly affected

1765
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:42,720
by external electromagnetic fields if

1766
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:44,319
they were we would be using these kinds

1767
00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:46,559
of things in the lab to manipulate the

1768
00:59:50,870 --> 00:59:47,599
electrical

1769
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:50,880
it's not a great way to control

1770
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:52,079
bioelectric

1771
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:53,760
signaling within tissue it's it just

1772
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:55,599
doesn't do a very good job of it so i

1773
00:59:59,910 --> 00:59:57,119
don't have any particular reason to be

1774
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,920
worried about 5g i have a feeling that

1775
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:01,520
uh for most people that are worried

1776
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:04,319
about it you have far bigger dangers and

1777
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:06,400
stressors in your life you know uh if

1778
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:08,720
you eat certain things if you uh engage

1779
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:10,079
in certain behaviors

1780
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,640
this is far more of an issue for you

1781
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:14,720
statistically than than 5g ever will be

1782
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,359
so so i'm i i'm not particularly worried

1783
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:19,920
about 5g on a on a practical level in

1784
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,599
the in the grand scheme of things that i

1785
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:23,040
worry about in the things that we all do

1786
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:24,559
in our life that are sort of not optimal

1787
01:00:27,750 --> 01:00:26,400
for health i think 5g is probably way

1788
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:27,760
down on the list of things for you to

1789
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:30,079
worry about however i think it's it's

1790
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:31,920
not true to say that uh because it's

1791
01:00:35,589 --> 01:00:33,440
non-ionizing we don't need to worry

1792
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:35,599
about it i think that's actually false

1793
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:37,520
okay speaking about diet you mentioned

1794
01:00:40,710 --> 01:00:39,599
eating and then in one of your talks you

1795
01:00:43,030 --> 01:00:40,720
also mentioned there's a connection

1796
01:00:44,950 --> 01:00:43,040
between the microbiome and this

1797
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:44,960
morphogenetic field but i didn't hear

1798
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:46,400
more elaboration on that so if you don't

1799
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:48,960
mind elaborating they'll be great

1800
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:50,400
yeah well

1801
01:00:54,309 --> 01:00:52,799
the general point is that

1802
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:54,319
any sort of

1803
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:58,880
modality that that controls the behavior

1804
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:00,960
of cells in an organism automatically

1805
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:03,280
becomes the target of an evolutionary

1806
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:06,000
arms race of other organisms that live

1807
01:01:10,950 --> 01:01:08,400
near you on you within you and so on

1808
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:10,960
because they can potentially manipulate

1809
01:01:15,270 --> 01:01:13,119
those controls to make specific things

1810
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:15,280
happen in the body right so so anything

1811
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:16,640
including chemical signaling

1812
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:18,400
neurotransmitters we already know that

1813
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,200
the microbiome is affecting mood and

1814
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:22,960
behavior and things like that by

1815
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:24,799
plugging into the neurotransmitter

1816
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:27,119
pathways so there's this gut brain axis

1817
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:28,079
and so on

1818
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:30,559
so the same is true of bioelectric so so

1819
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:32,799
in general you we could certainly assume

1820
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,559
that various microbes that live in the

1821
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:35,839
body and various other kinds of

1822
01:01:41,109 --> 01:01:38,400
parasites would have ways of tweaking

1823
01:01:43,109 --> 01:01:41,119
ion channel activities meaning probably

1824
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:43,119
using some sort of you know chemicals

1825
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:44,480
that they would be putting out to

1826
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:46,480
manipulate your tissues way in ways that

1827
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:47,520
would be

1828
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:50,160
evolutionarily advantageous to them now

1829
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:51,920
it just so happens we have a practical

1830
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:53,520
example of this that we studied a couple

1831
01:01:57,029 --> 01:01:55,520
years ago in planaria

1832
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:57,039
where and this was done in collaboration

1833
01:02:00,549 --> 01:01:57,839
with

1834
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:00,559
ben wolf's lab at tufts where we showed

1835
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:02,960
that there are bacteria that live on

1836
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,280
these planaria and these bacteria are

1837
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:07,440
actually able to manipulate the worms to

1838
01:02:11,349 --> 01:02:09,119
for example alter the structure of their

1839
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:11,359
visual system to have multiple heads and

1840
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:14,240
so on and that is because these uh these

1841
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,799
bacteria are able to

1842
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:18,559
tweak the same kinds of controls that

1843
01:02:21,910 --> 01:02:20,160
the worm tissues are using in the first

1844
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:21,920
place to make decisions about how many

1845
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:23,280
heads you're supposed to have what what

1846
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:24,880
your visual system should look like so

1847
01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:27,359
it's it's it's on the one hand uh kind

1848
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:29,440
of amazing that that these microbes have

1849
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:31,760
a say in the structure of this uh

1850
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:33,920
kind of organism that they live in on

1851
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:35,440
the other hand from an evolutionary

1852
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:37,200
point of view is completely expected

1853
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,480
that they would have discovered ways to

1854
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:40,079
do that

1855
01:02:43,270 --> 01:02:41,520
earlier in our talk you mentioned that

1856
01:02:45,109 --> 01:02:43,280
when you were looking for these voltage

1857
01:02:47,029 --> 01:02:45,119
gradients when you did this die the

1858
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:47,039
voltage die you saw something that it

1859
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:49,200
was a conspicuous face on the frog and

1860
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,720
then you also mentioned well

1861
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:52,480
you don't imagine that the code will be

1862
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:55,440
that obvious for the majority of what we

1863
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:57,440
care about especially for humans how is

1864
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:59,200
it that you go about finding out or

1865
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:01,119
decoding this code

1866
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:02,799
and also what other factors matter is it

1867
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,960
the do they pulse the voltage pulses and

1868
01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:06,960
then so the frequency of pulsing matters

1869
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:08,559
doesn't move like what are the factors

1870
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:10,079
that go in to

1871
01:03:13,029 --> 01:03:11,680
determining the code and then how do you

1872
01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:13,039
decode it

1873
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:16,160
yeah um we don't know many of the things

1874
01:03:20,390 --> 01:03:18,240
about it so for example at the moment it

1875
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:20,400
doesn't look like there's pulsing and

1876
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:22,720
that the the temporal aspects of it are

1877
01:03:26,150 --> 01:03:24,480
particularly critical but that's

1878
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:26,160
probably more a function of the fact

1879
01:03:29,510 --> 01:03:27,920
that we haven't really dug into it yet

1880
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:29,520
but it's entirely possible that when we

1881
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:31,920
we dig into the temporal aspects we will

1882
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:34,240
find out that the time dependent changes

1883
01:03:37,589 --> 01:03:36,000
are really important it's possible at

1884
01:03:39,349 --> 01:03:37,599
the moment we've been completely

1885
01:03:41,109 --> 01:03:39,359
occupied with the spatial aspects and it

1886
01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:41,119
doesn't look at least to our technology

1887
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:43,359
it doesn't look like it's uh

1888
01:03:47,829 --> 01:03:45,760
pulsing in in that particular way but we

1889
01:03:49,750 --> 01:03:47,839
may have simply not found it yet

1890
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:49,760
uh in terms of in terms of how do you

1891
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:52,000
how do you crack the code so

1892
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:54,000
um there's a few there's a few pieces to

1893
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:56,720
this one piece is simply observation

1894
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:58,400
right so it's almost everything in

1895
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,599
science starts with some sort of

1896
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:01,520
observation and really just getting a

1897
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:03,599
database or a profile of different

1898
01:04:07,190 --> 01:04:05,520
tissues under different conditions a

1899
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:07,200
bioelectric profile of different tissues

1900
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:08,880
under different different conditions

1901
01:04:13,190 --> 01:04:11,440
will be absolutely crucial to decoding

1902
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:13,200
this because we need the same way that

1903
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:15,839
we currently have databases of gene

1904
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:19,839
expression of proteomics of um

1905
01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:22,319
all all these kind of biochemical and

1906
01:04:25,990 --> 01:04:24,319
and genetic profilings of tissues and

1907
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:26,000
health and disease and different cells

1908
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:28,160
of the body and so on uh we need the

1909
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:30,160
exact same thing for bioelectric so we

1910
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:32,880
need a kind of physiomic profiling where

1911
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,240
there ought to be a database where we

1912
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:36,960
can go and say this particular tissue

1913
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:39,440
under these conditions should be in this

1914
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:41,920
we have this bioelectric pattern and

1915
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:44,480
here are the sort of range of normal and

1916
01:04:48,789 --> 01:04:46,640
here's how a difference between between

1917
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:48,799
people and between the organisms in

1918
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:50,240
different states and so on so that

1919
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:51,680
that's that's the first thing and so we

1920
01:04:55,109 --> 01:04:54,000
only have that for very small number of

1921
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:55,119
cases

1922
01:04:58,870 --> 01:04:56,640
we certainly don't have anything like a

1923
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,880
full physiomic profiling yet

1924
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:00,720
then what you need to do is you need to

1925
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:02,880
build computational models that help you

1926
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:05,280
explain why the electrical pattern is

1927
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:08,000
the way it is given the various channels

1928
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:10,079
and pumps that are

1929
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:11,920
that are expressed in that tissue and

1930
01:05:15,109 --> 01:05:13,599
then you begin the hard work of

1931
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:15,119
functional experiments so you open and

1932
01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:16,960
close some channels you observe what

1933
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:19,680
happens and you build up uh a theory

1934
01:05:23,589 --> 01:05:22,240
based on an improved computational model

1935
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:23,599
of how that

1936
01:05:27,670 --> 01:05:25,920
particular bioelectric pattern triggers

1937
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:27,680
the downstream effects that it has so

1938
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:29,359
for example we know now there's a

1939
01:05:33,029 --> 01:05:31,440
pattern that corresponds to make an eye

1940
01:05:35,910 --> 01:05:33,039
there's another pattern that corresponds

1941
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:35,920
to build whatever goes at this location

1942
01:05:41,029 --> 01:05:38,480
of a wound we have a pattern that says

1943
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:41,039
build a nice sharp brain the edge of a

1944
01:05:45,029 --> 01:05:42,880
brain and so we have a pattern that says

1945
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:45,039
um don't be a tumor be normal tissue and

1946
01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:47,520
so on these kinds of um

1947
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:49,760
these kinds of patterns need to be uh

1948
01:05:52,950 --> 01:05:52,000
need to be identified and that can only

1949
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:52,960
be done

1950
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:55,920
with uh this kind of mapping of of

1951
01:05:59,190 --> 01:05:57,599
pattern to the particular outcome and

1952
01:06:01,270 --> 01:05:59,200
then there's a lot of computational work

1953
01:06:03,190 --> 01:06:01,280
that goes in between

1954
01:06:05,190 --> 01:06:03,200
do you think psychedelics have any role

1955
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:05,200
to play in

1956
01:06:09,670 --> 01:06:07,280
in changing or altering the

1957
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:09,680
morphogenetic morphological code what i

1958
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,640
mean is

1959
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,559
you know after a single initial dose

1960
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,640
there's markedly increased openness and

1961
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:16,240
i'm wondering well is that because

1962
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:17,920
there's a change in some non-neural

1963
01:06:27,109 --> 01:06:24,630
i have no idea uh i i've been no

1964
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,119
expertise in in psychedelics whatsoever

1965
01:06:31,029 --> 01:06:29,039
i can tell you that much like in the

1966
01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:31,039
brain um

1967
01:06:35,589 --> 01:06:33,920
there is there's a really uh nice

1968
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:35,599
connection between neurotransmitter

1969
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:37,520
activity in the rest of the body and the

1970
01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:38,960
electrical signals that move these

1971
01:06:43,750 --> 01:06:41,440
neurotransmitters around so i would not

1972
01:06:45,910 --> 01:06:43,760
be at all shocked if there was some

1973
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:45,920
connection and in fact we've certainly

1974
01:06:51,750 --> 01:06:49,280
used various compounds that are normally

1975
01:06:54,150 --> 01:06:51,760
uh utilized to target uh to target the

1976
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:54,160
brains and so so things like anxiety

1977
01:06:58,390 --> 01:06:56,720
lytics and ssris and

1978
01:06:59,750 --> 01:06:58,400
various kinds of drugs that are normally

1979
01:07:02,630 --> 01:06:59,760
used in the nervous system we've used

1980
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:02,640
them in in embryogenesis

1981
01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:04,960
uh in regeneration to to try to tweak

1982
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:06,160
some of these pathways outside the

1983
01:07:09,349 --> 01:07:07,839
nervous system so that that's that's for

1984
01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:09,359
sure a thing you can do

1985
01:07:13,109 --> 01:07:11,039
whether or not it has anything to do

1986
01:07:14,789 --> 01:07:13,119
with the mental states induced by these

1987
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:14,799
kind of compounds in humans i have no

1988
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:15,599
idea

1989
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:17,119
i know these questions are desolatory

1990
01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:18,559
they keep

1991
01:07:23,349 --> 01:07:20,160
going from subject to subject it's just

1992
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:23,359
how my notes were but well regardless

1993
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:25,520
you mentioned one time i think it was to

1994
01:07:29,829 --> 01:07:28,160
sean carroll that you can use daniel

1995
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:29,839
dennett's way of speaking of intention

1996
01:07:33,029 --> 01:07:30,880
that is

1997
01:07:34,390 --> 01:07:33,039
i believe it was give as much intention

1998
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:34,400
as you like to a system in order to

1999
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:36,079
explain what's happening and when i say

2000
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:38,400
intention i mean act as if it's willing

2001
01:07:41,349 --> 01:07:39,680
to do something

2002
01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:41,359
and then you also mention that when one

2003
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:44,079
scales down one's theological projection

2004
01:07:48,950 --> 01:07:46,559
to smaller particles like pan psychics

2005
01:07:50,870 --> 01:07:48,960
might do then it leads naturally to

2006
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:50,880
quantum indeterminacy and the least

2007
01:07:54,630 --> 01:07:52,960
action principle okay so let's start

2008
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:54,640
from the beginning uh the

2009
01:08:00,789 --> 01:07:56,720
dan dennett's intentional stance

2010
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:00,799
is the basically the following idea that

2011
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:02,880
the real answer

2012
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:05,520
to whether due to how much

2013
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:07,680
intentionality but you know he usually

2014
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:08,960
talks about consciousness but but

2015
01:08:13,270 --> 01:08:11,680
intentionality cognition intelligence

2016
01:08:15,990 --> 01:08:13,280
whatever whatever you're interested in

2017
01:08:18,709 --> 01:08:16,000
the real question of how much of that

2018
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:18,719
some particular system has is not to be

2019
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,880
found by sort of armchair philosophy

2020
01:08:23,910 --> 01:08:22,400
right to just assume and you know people

2021
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,920
say this all time they say things like

2022
01:08:27,990 --> 01:08:25,920
well thermostats can't possibly have any

2023
01:08:29,669 --> 01:08:28,000
intention or you know

2024
01:08:32,229 --> 01:08:29,679
so so this is this is a decision that

2025
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:32,239
somebody had made it has made just by uh

2026
01:08:37,349 --> 01:08:34,880
by by fiat basically and and and dan's

2027
01:08:39,030 --> 01:08:37,359
point is is very important it's that

2028
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:39,040
it's an empirical question you can't

2029
01:08:43,590 --> 01:08:41,359
just you can't just decide and the way

2030
01:08:46,470 --> 01:08:43,600
that you discover this is simply this

2031
01:08:48,229 --> 01:08:46,480
you take a particular stance and you say

2032
01:08:49,590 --> 01:08:48,239
here's my system i think it has this

2033
01:08:51,749 --> 01:08:49,600
much intelligence or i think it's

2034
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:51,759
capable of learning or i think it's able

2035
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:52,400
to

2036
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,560
uh have preferences in the you know or i

2037
01:08:57,269 --> 01:08:55,839
think it's a goal directed system

2038
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:57,279
whatever whatever

2039
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:59,279
wherever you choose to uh to start on

2040
01:09:04,070 --> 01:09:00,640
that continuum

2041
01:09:05,910 --> 01:09:04,080
and using that stance you do empirical

2042
01:09:08,070 --> 01:09:05,920
experiments to see how well that stands

2043
01:09:10,149 --> 01:09:08,080
helps you to understand what and control

2044
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:10,159
whatever you're dealing with and so the

2045
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:13,040
point being that we can't simply assume

2046
01:09:16,630 --> 01:09:14,799
that something is a non-intelligent

2047
01:09:19,030 --> 01:09:16,640
system because of what it's how it's

2048
01:09:20,709 --> 01:09:19,040
made or because of how it looks you have

2049
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:20,719
to actually ask

2050
01:09:24,550 --> 01:09:22,080
does

2051
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:24,560
what is the optimal way of looking at

2052
01:09:29,829 --> 01:09:26,960
that system so just to give you a simple

2053
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:29,839
a simple analogy if you have a ball on

2054
01:09:35,990 --> 01:09:34,239
top of a hill you are pretty well um

2055
01:09:38,070 --> 01:09:36,000
you're going to do pretty well using the

2056
01:09:39,749 --> 01:09:38,080
newton's laws to ask how it's going to

2057
01:09:41,430 --> 01:09:39,759
roll down the hill and if you have

2058
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:41,440
additional theories about the hopes and

2059
01:09:45,269 --> 01:09:43,120
dreams of this ball as it rolls down the

2060
01:09:46,709 --> 01:09:45,279
hill they're not going to do you much

2061
01:09:49,669 --> 01:09:46,719
good right they're not going to give you

2062
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:49,679
any improved ability to uh to to

2063
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:51,199
understand and control what's going to

2064
01:09:55,110 --> 01:09:52,960
happen on the other hand if you start

2065
01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:55,120
off with a with a with a live mouse at

2066
01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:56,560
the top of a hill and you think you're

2067
01:10:00,229 --> 01:09:58,320
going to apply newton's laws you're not

2068
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:00,239
going to do very well uh because you're

2069
01:10:05,189 --> 01:10:02,560
going to need some other laws and so you

2070
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,199
might decide that the system is is

2071
01:10:09,270 --> 01:10:07,440
minimally intelligent and see how you do

2072
01:10:11,189 --> 01:10:09,280
you might decide that the system is very

2073
01:10:12,310 --> 01:10:11,199
intelligent and it has memories of of

2074
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:12,320
what happened when you put it on the

2075
01:10:14,709 --> 01:10:13,840
hill last week and it might do something

2076
01:10:16,149 --> 01:10:14,719
different

2077
01:10:17,669 --> 01:10:16,159
the point is it's an empirical

2078
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:17,679
experiment you can't just decide what

2079
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:20,320
it's going to be you have to uh you have

2080
01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:23,760
to choose a a level of abstraction of

2081
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:25,040
some type of

2082
01:10:28,630 --> 01:10:26,960
learning agent maybe maybe all maybe

2083
01:10:30,470 --> 01:10:28,640
very little maybe quite a lot and see

2084
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:30,480
how you do so so that's uh so that's

2085
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:32,159
that's the intentional stance is that

2086
01:10:36,709 --> 01:10:34,400
that everything is to be decided by the

2087
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:36,719
quality of the predictions and the

2088
01:10:41,669 --> 01:10:38,960
amount of control you gain by viewing

2089
01:10:43,750 --> 01:10:41,679
your system in a particular light right

2090
01:10:45,510 --> 01:10:43,760
so so so everything is is in a way

2091
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:45,520
observer dependent and it's dependent on

2092
01:10:48,790 --> 01:10:46,560
the on the

2093
01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:48,800
experimental context in which you want

2094
01:10:52,709 --> 01:10:51,040
to examine the system you know a a human

2095
01:10:54,390 --> 01:10:52,719
brain is very intelligent in a certain

2096
01:10:56,709 --> 01:10:54,400
context it also makes a great

2097
01:10:58,550 --> 01:10:56,719
paperweight and if and if that's the the

2098
01:11:00,870 --> 01:10:58,560
how you choose to look at it then you're

2099
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:00,880
you don't need uh to understand to

2100
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,800
attribute much intelligence to it if

2101
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:04,400
you're examining the problem space of

2102
01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:06,320
keeping down some papers in a wind then

2103
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:07,760
then it doesn't come up

2104
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:09,440
so so that's so that's so that's that

2105
01:11:13,030 --> 01:11:11,600
and so my uh where where i intersect

2106
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:13,040
with this is that

2107
01:11:17,830 --> 01:11:14,960
i basically point out that

2108
01:11:21,669 --> 01:11:17,840
uh this is a really essential

2109
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:21,679
looking at things when

2110
01:11:26,229 --> 01:11:24,000
traditional phylogenetics

2111
01:11:28,630 --> 01:11:26,239
is is not a great guide and this is

2112
01:11:31,350 --> 01:11:28,640
meaning that when we are confronted with

2113
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,360
novel creatures they might be novel

2114
01:11:35,430 --> 01:11:33,040
bioengineered creatures they might be

2115
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:35,440
chimeras they might be uh something that

2116
01:11:38,950 --> 01:11:36,960
you find in space somewhere some

2117
01:11:41,030 --> 01:11:38,960
exobiological agent they might be

2118
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:41,040
artificial intelligences that we create

2119
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:42,239
whatever it is

2120
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:43,600
when you are confronted with something

2121
01:11:47,430 --> 01:11:45,199
that you cannot simply place on the

2122
01:11:50,070 --> 01:11:47,440
familiar evolutionary tree of life in on

2123
01:11:52,310 --> 01:11:50,080
earth and say oh yeah this thing is uh

2124
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:52,320
closely related to a fish therefore i'm

2125
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:53,360
going to

2126
01:11:58,470 --> 01:11:56,640
cognition of other fish that i've known

2127
01:12:01,030 --> 01:11:58,480
so when you are

2128
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:01,040
cr either creating or reverse

2129
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:02,640
engineering

2130
01:12:07,590 --> 01:12:04,880
novel creatures the intentional stance

2131
01:12:09,669 --> 01:12:07,600
becomes completely essential because you

2132
01:12:11,669 --> 01:12:09,679
can't know a priori what the cognitive

2133
01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:11,679
capacities of this thing are going to be

2134
01:12:15,990 --> 01:12:14,000
and they might be uh it might behoove

2135
01:12:17,510 --> 01:12:16,000
you to really attribute quite a lot of

2136
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:17,520
cognition to it or maybe not at all

2137
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:19,199
depending on

2138
01:12:24,310 --> 01:12:20,159
how

2139
01:12:26,390 --> 01:12:24,320
empirical success so having said that

2140
01:12:28,470 --> 01:12:26,400
then the natural question might come up

2141
01:12:31,590 --> 01:12:28,480
is there a zero on this scale so if

2142
01:12:34,070 --> 01:12:31,600
you've got a scale uh a a continuum of

2143
01:12:35,830 --> 01:12:34,080
cognition or of intelligence that that

2144
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:35,840
is a smooth gradient where different

2145
01:12:39,990 --> 01:12:38,239
types of systems might might land right

2146
01:12:41,990 --> 01:12:40,000
and so the question is is there in fact

2147
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:42,000
a zero and so what i was saying is is

2148
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:43,679
simply this that

2149
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:45,520
if you

2150
01:12:49,510 --> 01:12:47,840
uh if if somebody if somebody had said

2151
01:12:53,430 --> 01:12:49,520
to me um

2152
01:12:57,189 --> 01:12:54,950
what would you have to have an absolute

2153
01:12:59,270 --> 01:12:57,199
minimum in order to be on this scale at

2154
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:59,280
all right so so to be somewhere on the

2155
01:13:01,990 --> 01:13:00,719
scale of cognitive creatures what's the

2156
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:02,000
what's the basement right what's what's

2157
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:03,840
the minimal version that you would have

2158
01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:06,239
to have i would say probably the minimum

2159
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:07,760
you would have to have two things you

2160
01:13:12,709 --> 01:13:10,719
would have to have some ability to do

2161
01:13:15,189 --> 01:13:12,719
goal directed behavior so you would have

2162
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:15,199
to have some kind of ability to to

2163
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:17,440
pursue goal states and you would have

2164
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:19,920
you would have to have some kind of uh

2165
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:23,760
internal uh control such that your

2166
01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:25,280
um

2167
01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:27,440
your your behavior and the things you do

2168
01:13:32,070 --> 01:13:30,000
are not perfectly described by all the

2169
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:32,080
external influences around you at a

2170
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:33,600
given time

2171
01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:35,440
right in other words in other words if

2172
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:37,199
if i can if i can look at all of the

2173
01:13:41,430 --> 01:13:40,239
forces impinging on you and know exactly

2174
01:13:44,470 --> 01:13:41,440
what's going to happen then you're

2175
01:13:46,229 --> 01:13:44,480
probably a marble running down you know

2176
01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:46,239
some kind of an incline plane otherwise

2177
01:13:49,350 --> 01:13:47,920
otherwise if if you're if you're more

2178
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:49,360
complex than that

2179
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:50,800
then i would have to take into account

2180
01:13:54,229 --> 01:13:52,320
things that happened before things that

2181
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:54,239
might happen in the future all kinds of

2182
01:13:57,430 --> 01:13:55,840
things that are not immediately what's

2183
01:14:00,310 --> 01:13:57,440
what's what's there so so what that

2184
01:14:02,950 --> 01:14:00,320
boils down to is some sort of internally

2185
01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:02,960
uh internally uh initiated action some

2186
01:14:06,229 --> 01:14:04,640
some some quote-unquote freedom and

2187
01:14:07,910 --> 01:14:06,239
that's you know that's a whole other

2188
01:14:09,510 --> 01:14:07,920
story to really dig into that but this

2189
01:14:11,030 --> 01:14:09,520
idea that that you would be able to

2190
01:14:12,790 --> 01:14:11,040
initiate things on your own you're not

2191
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:12,800
just a responding you're not you're not

2192
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:14,800
just a passive responder to forces

2193
01:14:18,790 --> 01:14:16,880
around you at that time and so having

2194
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:18,800
said that having said those two things

2195
01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:22,640
you realize that already uh particles

2196
01:14:26,470 --> 01:14:24,960
already have those two things because

2197
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:26,480
because particles already exhibit

2198
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:28,159
quantum indeterminacy where they do

2199
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:30,000
things that are that are fundamentally

2200
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:32,000
not caused by any of the things around

2201
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:33,280
them right they're complete it's

2202
01:14:38,310 --> 01:14:35,840
completely uh sort of um

2203
01:14:40,390 --> 01:14:38,320
indeterminate and they have the ability

2204
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:40,400
to pursue goals in a very

2205
01:14:45,030 --> 01:14:43,520
uh sort of a very primitive manner which

2206
01:14:46,709 --> 01:14:45,040
is which are these least action

2207
01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:46,719
principles and so

2208
01:14:51,990 --> 01:14:49,280
one of the benefits of people often say

2209
01:14:54,310 --> 01:14:52,000
that um that that pan psychism

2210
01:14:55,750 --> 01:14:54,320
is it's it's a bad theory because

2211
01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:55,760
because it doesn't lead anywhere it

2212
01:14:59,350 --> 01:14:57,760
doesn't give you anything and i think

2213
01:15:01,669 --> 01:14:59,360
it's certainly there's there's there's a

2214
01:15:03,110 --> 01:15:01,679
little bit of truth to that but

2215
01:15:05,110 --> 01:15:03,120
there's um

2216
01:15:07,030 --> 01:15:05,120
there's also the fact that if you were

2217
01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:07,040
to ask the question

2218
01:15:10,229 --> 01:15:07,840
uh

2219
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:10,239
i think that even par if you were to say

2220
01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:12,400
that i think even particles should have

2221
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:14,640
some degree of gold directed activity

2222
01:15:19,030 --> 01:15:16,800
you might make a prediction

2223
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:19,040
of of something like least action

2224
01:15:22,390 --> 01:15:20,880
principles existing and then you would

2225
01:15:23,669 --> 01:15:22,400
be right you would find you know they

2226
01:15:25,590 --> 01:15:23,679
that that model actually makes a

2227
01:15:28,229 --> 01:15:25,600
prediction that's completely not obvious

2228
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:28,239
it is it isn't obvious that uh that that

2229
01:15:32,070 --> 01:15:30,080
when you have a um

2230
01:15:34,950 --> 01:15:32,080
a beam of light passing through a bunch

2231
01:15:36,310 --> 01:15:34,960
of lenses it's it's not obvious that you

2232
01:15:38,950 --> 01:15:36,320
can actually

2233
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:38,960
forego the calculations of how the light

2234
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:40,800
will interact at the at with the glass

2235
01:15:43,669 --> 01:15:42,320
at every point along the way and simply

2236
01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:43,679
say you know what i think i think it

2237
01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:45,040
wants to get where it's going with the

2238
01:15:49,430 --> 01:15:47,840
least amount of uh action right and so

2239
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:49,440
and so you can you can make the correct

2240
01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:50,719
prediction of where it's going to go

2241
01:15:54,790 --> 01:15:52,480
simply by assuming that the light likes

2242
01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:54,800
to get where it's going

2243
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:56,480
by minimizing and maximizing certain

2244
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:59,040
things and you could predict something

2245
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:01,440
like that if you had this idea that even

2246
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:03,840
at the very bottom there would be some

2247
01:16:08,790 --> 01:16:05,120
type of

2248
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:08,800
goal directed activity so if we ask what

2249
01:16:12,630 --> 01:16:10,880
does that look like what does agency and

2250
01:16:14,790 --> 01:16:12,640
intelligence look like in the very

2251
01:16:16,310 --> 01:16:14,800
minimal the the most minimal version

2252
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:16,320
possible i think what you get is

2253
01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:18,239
something like like particles so from

2254
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:20,880
that perspective i suspect there is no

2255
01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:23,440
zero on this scale because because even

2256
01:16:28,149 --> 01:16:25,760
particles are already on the scale

2257
01:16:29,990 --> 01:16:28,159
okay this zero was that the way that i

2258
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:30,000
understand that is that that's like an

2259
01:16:32,830 --> 01:16:31,920
intelligence scale do you synonymize

2260
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:32,840
that with

2261
01:16:38,390 --> 01:16:34,960
consciousness right that's that's a good

2262
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:38,400
question uh i will say that um in my

2263
01:16:42,390 --> 01:16:39,760
um

2264
01:16:44,790 --> 01:16:42,400
writing on all of this stuff i've almost

2265
01:16:46,390 --> 01:16:44,800
completely avoided consciousness okay i

2266
01:16:48,709 --> 01:16:46,400
almost never talk about consciousness i

2267
01:16:51,590 --> 01:16:48,719
talk about cognition and and that's

2268
01:16:54,310 --> 01:16:51,600
that's kind of on purpose um i

2269
01:16:55,430 --> 01:16:54,320
don't have my my views on consciousness

2270
01:16:56,310 --> 01:16:55,440
are not

2271
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:56,320
uh

2272
01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:58,239
fleshed out to the point where i'd be

2273
01:17:01,990 --> 01:16:59,840
interested in talking about them because

2274
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:02,000
i don't think i can add anything yet

2275
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:03,760
that a lot of other smart people haven't

2276
01:17:06,950 --> 01:17:06,000
already chewed over what i think i have

2277
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:06,960
um

2278
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:09,040
something to contribute is to the to the

2279
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:10,560
questions of of cognition and

2280
01:17:14,630 --> 01:17:12,960
intelligence because those things are

2281
01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:14,640
empirically measurable they're absorbed

2282
01:17:19,910 --> 01:17:17,920
publicly observable behaviors and we can

2283
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:19,920
we can have a research program focused

2284
01:17:22,790 --> 01:17:21,600
around them that i think is is different

2285
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,800
than what other people have been doing

2286
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:24,400
so that's what i've been talking about

2287
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:27,280
consciousness is different um

2288
01:17:31,830 --> 01:17:29,120
in the sense that i think many of the

2289
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:31,840
people who study who who say they study

2290
01:17:35,510 --> 01:17:33,600
consciousness in fact do not study

2291
01:17:38,310 --> 01:17:35,520
consciousness what they study at best

2292
01:17:41,669 --> 01:17:38,320
are correlates of consciousness or

2293
01:17:43,270 --> 01:17:41,679
oftentimes behaviors and properties that

2294
01:17:45,669 --> 01:17:43,280
may or may not have anything to do with

2295
01:17:47,430 --> 01:17:45,679
actual consciousness and so i think it's

2296
01:17:51,110 --> 01:17:47,440
very difficult to study actual

2297
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:51,120
consciousness if you you have to

2298
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:53,840
studying consciousness is a first person

2299
01:17:57,430 --> 01:17:55,440
activity it's not a third person

2300
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:57,440
activity the way that you would study

2301
01:18:01,270 --> 01:17:59,280
anything in the external world meaning

2302
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:01,280
studying it externally outside of

2303
01:18:05,189 --> 01:18:03,360
yourself i think fundamentally studying

2304
01:18:07,430 --> 01:18:05,199
consciousness requires

2305
01:18:09,430 --> 01:18:07,440
the subject of meaning you or whoever is

2306
01:18:12,550 --> 01:18:09,440
studying it to actually change during

2307
01:18:14,149 --> 01:18:12,560
during that that that process it's a

2308
01:18:16,470 --> 01:18:14,159
it's a completely different thing so so

2309
01:18:18,390 --> 01:18:16,480
i'm i'm i'm working on some things along

2310
01:18:20,229 --> 01:18:18,400
those lines it's a little early uh it's

2311
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:20,239
a little early to talk about it

2312
01:18:24,070 --> 01:18:22,800
faraz hanarvar asks could the mapping

2313
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:24,080
and thereby the treatment of the

2314
01:18:27,830 --> 01:18:25,679
signaling that is this electric

2315
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:27,840
signaling differ between individuals

2316
01:18:31,750 --> 01:18:29,600
when we're talking about humans so does

2317
01:18:33,669 --> 01:18:31,760
the code is the code species dependent

2318
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:33,679
or can it actually differ

2319
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:36,719
based upon people

2320
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:39,600
yeah um i don't think it's even species

2321
01:18:44,870 --> 01:18:41,760
dependent because we've seen that we can

2322
01:18:46,709 --> 01:18:44,880
induce let's say one species of flatworm

2323
01:18:49,270 --> 01:18:46,719
to form a head that belongs to a

2324
01:18:51,189 --> 01:18:49,280
completely different species simply by

2325
01:18:52,630 --> 01:18:51,199
by changing the distribution of gap

2326
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:52,640
junctional connections

2327
01:18:57,350 --> 01:18:55,040
uh i suspect there are massive

2328
01:19:00,070 --> 01:18:57,360
uh conservations in the same way that

2329
01:19:02,070 --> 01:19:00,080
the biochemical and genetic codes are

2330
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:02,080
are highly highly conserved

2331
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:03,600
um are there going to be individual

2332
01:19:08,470 --> 01:19:06,000
differences among patients for sure and

2333
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,480
we need to understand what those are we

2334
01:19:12,630 --> 01:19:10,080
do not yet know what those are that's a

2335
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:12,640
major area for future research but i

2336
01:19:17,189 --> 01:19:14,960
think it's going to be conserved

2337
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:17,199
sufficiently that we will be able to

2338
01:19:23,510 --> 01:19:20,400
have general purpose

2339
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:23,520
electroceuticals however i think that

2340
01:19:27,990 --> 01:19:25,840
there will have to be some very serious

2341
01:19:30,550 --> 01:19:28,000
computational modeling that is going to

2342
01:19:32,630 --> 01:19:30,560
likely be personalized that is we're

2343
01:19:35,030 --> 01:19:32,640
going to have to take into account the

2344
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:35,040
various physiological and

2345
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:36,800
genetic states of the patient in terms

2346
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:38,080
of do they have any ion channel

2347
01:19:41,750 --> 01:19:40,159
mutations what what other kinds of

2348
01:19:43,350 --> 01:19:41,760
physiological things are going on in

2349
01:19:45,750 --> 01:19:43,360
their blood in terms of ion content and

2350
01:19:47,350 --> 01:19:45,760
so on in order to perfect some of these

2351
01:19:49,590 --> 01:19:47,360
some of these treatments i think it will

2352
01:19:51,430 --> 01:19:49,600
be very much personalized but underneath

2353
01:19:53,189 --> 01:19:51,440
it all is going to be a highly conserved

2354
01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:53,199
bioelectric code

2355
01:19:56,470 --> 01:19:55,440
you mentioned electroceuticals which

2356
01:19:58,709 --> 01:19:56,480
reminds me of your company

2357
01:20:00,229 --> 01:19:58,719
morphoceuticals so if you're allowed to

2358
01:20:03,110 --> 01:20:00,239
talk about that what's the state of it

2359
01:20:04,709 --> 01:20:03,120
what's the goal of it

2360
01:20:06,870 --> 01:20:04,719
yeah the goal of the goal so so

2361
01:20:09,669 --> 01:20:06,880
morphaceuticals inc is a it's a new

2362
01:20:12,070 --> 01:20:09,679
company that um i co-founded with david

2363
01:20:13,990 --> 01:20:12,080
kaplan who's uh head of biomedical

2364
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:14,000
engineering at tufts uh he and i are

2365
01:20:17,030 --> 01:20:15,679
partners in this work we work very

2366
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:17,040
closely together

2367
01:20:21,110 --> 01:20:19,280
and the right now the mission of

2368
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:21,120
morphoceuticals is focused around limb

2369
01:20:26,070 --> 01:20:24,080
regeneration so we are taking the things

2370
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:26,080
we learned in the frog in terms of how

2371
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:26,880
to

2372
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:28,800
induce the regeneration of appendages in

2373
01:20:33,830 --> 01:20:30,800
the frog and trying to move it to

2374
01:20:35,510 --> 01:20:33,840
mammals so that someday towards humans

2375
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:35,520
and so you know i can't really go into

2376
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:37,600
details of how it's going but it's in

2377
01:20:42,070 --> 01:20:39,679
its very early days but i'm i'm very

2378
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:42,080
optimistic that uh we will actually have

2379
01:20:45,430 --> 01:20:44,080
something something useful

2380
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:45,440
so that's what we're doing are you

2381
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:46,560
seeing more progress than you would

2382
01:20:51,030 --> 01:20:49,040
hoped or are you seeing less or

2383
01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:51,040
is it going pretty much how you expect

2384
01:20:54,950 --> 01:20:53,280
it basically going the way i thought it

2385
01:20:57,030 --> 01:20:54,960
would it's in the we're on track we're

2386
01:20:58,790 --> 01:20:57,040
on track given the the timeline that

2387
01:21:01,270 --> 01:20:58,800
we've envisioned and the basic science

2388
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:01,280
that has to be done i mean this is let's

2389
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:03,520
to be clear and and i receive all kinds

2390
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:05,199
of um emails and phone calls from people

2391
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:07,520
with with with really desperate medical

2392
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:09,679
conditions and it's it's just it's an

2393
01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:11,760
amazing the need is incredible and and

2394
01:21:15,590 --> 01:21:13,040
unfortunately i have to say to all these

2395
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:15,600
people every day that uh we're working

2396
01:21:18,390 --> 01:21:17,280
as fast as we can but it's still a basic

2397
01:21:20,310 --> 01:21:18,400
science

2398
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:20,320
project it is we are not in clinical

2399
01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:21,840
trials we are not dealing with human

2400
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:24,000
patients it is still very basic science

2401
01:21:28,070 --> 01:21:26,480
however it is now to the point where we

2402
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:28,080
have commercial investment and it's

2403
01:21:32,229 --> 01:21:29,840
obvious that it's going to at some point

2404
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:32,239
it's going to be real for patients

2405
01:21:36,709 --> 01:21:34,320
so um it's pretty much on track uh the

2406
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:36,719
idea is uh this is quite simple uh david

2407
01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:37,679
um

2408
01:21:40,390 --> 01:21:39,040
david's group makes these wearable

2409
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:40,400
bioreactors

2410
01:21:43,990 --> 01:21:41,199
and

2411
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:44,000
uh you wear them on a limb amputation

2412
01:21:46,390 --> 01:21:45,679
site and they basically produce a kind

2413
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:46,400
of

2414
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:49,120
uh protective aqueous environment around

2415
01:21:53,189 --> 01:21:51,120
the around the wound and then my group

2416
01:21:54,709 --> 01:21:53,199
comes up with the payload which are the

2417
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:54,719
drugs these are the electroceuticals

2418
01:21:59,110 --> 01:21:57,280
which are different types of ion channel

2419
01:22:01,590 --> 01:21:59,120
drugs and other other types of drugs

2420
01:22:03,590 --> 01:22:01,600
that are going to set the wound cells

2421
01:22:08,149 --> 01:22:03,600
towards a decision of let's let's

2422
01:22:11,990 --> 01:22:10,390
okay nadia wants to know would be very

2423
01:22:13,910 --> 01:22:12,000
interested in learning how the actual

2424
01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:13,920
algorithm works if he's even allowed to

2425
01:22:17,910 --> 01:22:16,560
share that information i guess it's some

2426
01:22:20,070 --> 01:22:17,920
form of pattern recognition but the

2427
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:20,080
details would be cool to learn which

2428
01:22:23,430 --> 01:22:21,760
which which yeah i'm not sure which

2429
01:22:25,590 --> 01:22:23,440
algorithm was she talking about i think

2430
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:25,600
she means the algorithm of when we

2431
01:22:29,270 --> 01:22:27,520
talked about decoding

2432
01:22:32,070 --> 01:22:29,280
decoding oh

2433
01:22:33,510 --> 01:22:32,080
like frog's face means frog's face

2434
01:22:35,590 --> 01:22:33,520
yeah

2435
01:22:38,149 --> 01:22:35,600
and then she has a sub question which

2436
01:22:39,669 --> 01:22:38,159
may be related also how do we know that

2437
01:22:41,750 --> 01:22:39,679
we are actually learning the cells

2438
01:22:43,910 --> 01:22:41,760
language and not just observing the

2439
01:22:46,149 --> 01:22:43,920
cause and effect because we only see

2440
01:22:49,590 --> 01:22:46,159
their behavior on the outside

2441
01:22:51,510 --> 01:22:49,600
well um i want i guess to go in order uh

2442
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:51,520
the algorithm is still very much under

2443
01:22:54,709 --> 01:22:53,600
development part of the problem is that

2444
01:22:56,550 --> 01:22:54,719
traditional

2445
01:22:58,229 --> 01:22:56,560
machine learning algorithms require

2446
01:22:59,910 --> 01:22:58,239
incredible amounts of data meaning

2447
01:23:02,070 --> 01:22:59,920
meaning huge numbers of examples to

2448
01:23:03,669 --> 01:23:02,080
learn from we don't we don't have those

2449
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:03,679
data so it's it's very expensive and

2450
01:23:07,669 --> 01:23:05,760
time consuming to get these images of

2451
01:23:09,990 --> 01:23:07,679
the electric pattern so we can't deploy

2452
01:23:10,790 --> 01:23:10,000
the typical types of algorithms that are

2453
01:23:12,950 --> 01:23:10,800
used

2454
01:23:16,149 --> 01:23:12,960
so we're still we're still a lot of the

2455
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:16,159
early work was basically done by hand

2456
01:23:20,470 --> 01:23:17,520
and

2457
01:23:21,750 --> 01:23:20,480
we're at the moment uh still is that

2458
01:23:24,229 --> 01:23:21,760
we're still working on these algorithms

2459
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:24,239
so that's still very much a uh kind of a

2460
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:26,719
a story in progress uh with respect to

2461
01:23:32,070 --> 01:23:29,280
the second question i guess i'm not sure

2462
01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:32,080
what the distinction would be so if we

2463
01:23:36,709 --> 01:23:34,719
understand the bioelectric signals

2464
01:23:38,709 --> 01:23:36,719
sufficiently that we can put out

2465
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:38,719
whatever whatever signal we want and get

2466
01:23:42,709 --> 01:23:40,960
the cells to do what we want i think by

2467
01:23:44,629 --> 01:23:42,719
definition that means we've communicated

2468
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:44,639
correctly to the cells which means by

2469
01:23:47,830 --> 01:23:46,080
definition we've learned their

2470
01:23:49,350 --> 01:23:47,840
appropriate language i'm not sure what

2471
01:23:51,189 --> 01:23:49,360
it would mean to be able to do that and

2472
01:23:53,030 --> 01:23:51,199
yet not really have the language of the

2473
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:53,040
cells

2474
01:23:57,669 --> 01:23:55,440
sam thompson wants to know do you think

2475
01:24:00,790 --> 01:23:57,679
biological self-organization and

2476
01:24:02,709 --> 01:24:00,800
emergence might be proto-algorithmic

2477
01:24:04,310 --> 01:24:02,719
and then what with the implications of

2478
01:24:06,229 --> 01:24:04,320
for that what would the implications be

2479
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:06,239
for science

2480
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,400
i don't know what proto-algorithmic

2481
01:24:13,750 --> 01:24:10,239
means in this context

2482
01:24:15,189 --> 01:24:13,760
um i can take i can take a stab at uh

2483
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:15,199
i think what might be an interesting

2484
01:24:18,629 --> 01:24:16,320
sense of it but i'm not sure that

2485
01:24:20,550 --> 01:24:18,639
captures what he was asking

2486
01:24:23,189 --> 01:24:20,560
the kind of thing that i think is

2487
01:24:24,229 --> 01:24:23,199
important sort of foundationally to

2488
01:24:25,030 --> 01:24:24,239
think about

2489
01:24:26,229 --> 01:24:25,040
is

2490
01:24:29,110 --> 01:24:26,239
where

2491
01:24:32,149 --> 01:24:29,120
do the set points of various uh

2492
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:32,159
homeostatic systems come from so so

2493
01:24:36,470 --> 01:24:33,840
whether you have physiological

2494
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:36,480
homeostasis or anatomical homeostasis

2495
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:38,880
the ability of a system to get back to

2496
01:24:41,590 --> 01:24:40,000
the same

2497
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:41,600
state even though it's it's perturbed

2498
01:24:46,390 --> 01:24:43,679
right one might ask where is that

2499
01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:46,400
information and an easy thing to say is

2500
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:49,120
that well it's it's evolution provides

2501
01:24:53,430 --> 01:24:51,440
it because certain types of um set

2502
01:24:55,590 --> 01:24:53,440
points are adaptive and other time other

2503
01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:55,600
types will will not you will not let you

2504
01:24:57,590 --> 01:24:56,719
survive

2505
01:25:00,229 --> 01:24:57,600
and

2506
01:25:02,709 --> 01:25:00,239
that's okay except that now what we see

2507
01:25:04,070 --> 01:25:02,719
with these synthetic organisms is that

2508
01:25:06,550 --> 01:25:04,080
for example with the xenobots we can

2509
01:25:09,189 --> 01:25:06,560
take these frog skin cells and put them

2510
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:09,199
in a new environment and within 48 hours

2511
01:25:12,709 --> 01:25:10,800
or so they

2512
01:25:15,830 --> 01:25:12,719
self-assemble into a new organism with a

2513
01:25:17,590 --> 01:25:15,840
new anatomy a new behavior and various

2514
01:25:20,149 --> 01:25:17,600
new capabilities

2515
01:25:22,470 --> 01:25:20,159
they never existed before they have no

2516
01:25:24,790 --> 01:25:22,480
lengthy history of selection on earth

2517
01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:24,800
right the the cells themselves evolved

2518
01:25:28,310 --> 01:25:26,560
for being really good at sitting on the

2519
01:25:30,550 --> 01:25:28,320
outside of a frog or a tadpole and

2520
01:25:32,070 --> 01:25:30,560
keeping out the bacteria they did not

2521
01:25:33,510 --> 01:25:32,080
evolve for the ability to get together

2522
01:25:35,189 --> 01:25:33,520
and run around by themselves and do

2523
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:35,199
various things so that raises the

2524
01:25:38,709 --> 01:25:36,639
interesting question of where does that

2525
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:38,719
actually come from right what the the

2526
01:25:42,310 --> 01:25:40,080
it's clear that there's incredible

2527
01:25:43,830 --> 01:25:42,320
plasticity of the hardware that's

2528
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:43,840
encoded by the genome it can do all

2529
01:25:48,390 --> 01:25:46,080
sorts of novel things but where does

2530
01:25:49,990 --> 01:25:48,400
where do the specific things come from

2531
01:25:51,990 --> 01:25:50,000
and i don't know if this is what he

2532
01:25:53,430 --> 01:25:52,000
meant by proto-algorithmic but

2533
01:25:55,669 --> 01:25:53,440
you can sort of think about it one of my

2534
01:25:57,669 --> 01:25:55,679
favorite analogies is this thing called

2535
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:57,679
a galton board i don't know if everybody

2536
01:26:01,030 --> 01:25:59,520
knows what that is but imagine imagine a

2537
01:26:02,709 --> 01:26:01,040
vertical piece of wood like this it's a

2538
01:26:04,470 --> 01:26:02,719
vertical piece of wood and then you bang

2539
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:04,480
a bunch of nails into it at you know

2540
01:26:08,149 --> 01:26:06,080
regularly spaced intervals you just bang

2541
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:08,159
a bunch of nails into it you take them

2542
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:10,000
you take a bucket of marbles and you

2543
01:26:13,110 --> 01:26:11,840
dump it into the top and they go boom

2544
01:26:14,870 --> 01:26:13,120
boom boom they all go and every marble

2545
01:26:15,830 --> 01:26:14,880
just sort of bounces stochastically back

2546
01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,840
and forth

2547
01:26:19,750 --> 01:26:18,000
if if if you've got enough marbles the

2548
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:19,760
outcome is always going to be exactly

2549
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,560
the same you're going to get this

2550
01:26:23,830 --> 01:26:22,639
beautiful bell curve

2551
01:26:24,950 --> 01:26:23,840
right if you just visualize and i

2552
01:26:26,310 --> 01:26:24,960
actually have toys of this you can

2553
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:26,320
actually buy one on amazon it's like

2554
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,560
twinkle from price is right yeah yeah

2555
01:26:31,990 --> 01:26:30,159
yeah very very similar very similar but

2556
01:26:33,270 --> 01:26:32,000
you dump a whole you see if you dump one

2557
01:26:34,629 --> 01:26:33,280
marble you have no idea where it's gonna

2558
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:34,639
end up but if you dump a bunch of

2559
01:26:38,310 --> 01:26:36,560
marbles in then on average you're going

2560
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:38,320
to get this beautiful bell curve and so

2561
01:26:42,470 --> 01:26:40,320
you can ask a simple question where is

2562
01:26:44,870 --> 01:26:42,480
the shape of this bell curve encoded

2563
01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:44,880
was it in the description of the wood no

2564
01:26:48,709 --> 01:26:46,800
was it in the layout of the nails no you

2565
01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:48,719
could put the nails almost any which way

2566
01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:51,040
you want was it in the in the recipe of

2567
01:26:55,110 --> 01:26:52,719
making this thing no

2568
01:26:57,430 --> 01:26:55,120
um where was it and so

2569
01:26:59,189 --> 01:26:57,440
you end up with this idea that

2570
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:59,199
much like and this is certainly i'm not

2571
01:27:03,669 --> 01:27:01,440
the first person by far to to to say

2572
01:27:05,590 --> 01:27:03,679
this this is a very old you know maybe

2573
01:27:07,270 --> 01:27:05,600
maybe pythagoras or plato had similar

2574
01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:07,280
ideas where

2575
01:27:11,990 --> 01:27:09,600
you would say that somewhere in an

2576
01:27:14,709 --> 01:27:12,000
important sense there are laws laws of

2577
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:14,719
mathematics laws of computation that

2578
01:27:19,270 --> 01:27:16,960
exist independent of

2579
01:27:21,270 --> 01:27:19,280
uh well independent they have an

2580
01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:21,280
independent existence and what happens

2581
01:27:25,910 --> 01:27:23,440
is that when we build specific kinds of

2582
01:27:28,149 --> 01:27:25,920
machines we couple to those laws and we

2583
01:27:28,870 --> 01:27:28,159
take advantage of them so for example if

2584
01:27:31,189 --> 01:27:28,880
you

2585
01:27:33,030 --> 01:27:31,199
build a a machine that looks like a

2586
01:27:35,110 --> 01:27:33,040
galton board you get to couple to the

2587
01:27:36,390 --> 01:27:35,120
rules of mathematics that give you this

2588
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:36,400
beautiful shape you didn't have to

2589
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:39,120
specify the shape ahead of time you get

2590
01:27:44,629 --> 01:27:42,239
the shape for free by building a device

2591
01:27:47,669 --> 01:27:44,639
that can couple to those laws if you

2592
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:47,679
discover a transistor which is basically

2593
01:27:51,189 --> 01:27:49,760
just a uh voltage-gated current

2594
01:27:52,629 --> 01:27:51,199
conductance right it's so it's like a

2595
01:27:54,629 --> 01:27:52,639
little tiny synapse you know it's the

2596
01:27:56,950 --> 01:27:54,639
same as a gap junction an ion channel as

2597
01:27:58,870 --> 01:27:56,960
soon as you've made that little machine

2598
01:28:00,870 --> 01:27:58,880
you can couple to these amazing laws of

2599
01:28:03,189 --> 01:28:00,880
computation that tell you for example

2600
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:03,199
that if you have a bunch of nand gates

2601
01:28:06,470 --> 01:28:04,960
you can build anything well where did

2602
01:28:08,390 --> 01:28:06,480
that fact come from you know these truth

2603
01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:08,400
tables or if you know two angles of a

2604
01:28:12,229 --> 01:28:09,760
triangle you automatically know the

2605
01:28:13,830 --> 01:28:12,239
third way where that come from so so

2606
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:13,840
where is that so so maybe that's what he

2607
01:28:17,350 --> 01:28:15,840
meant by proto-algorithmic but it's the

2608
01:28:19,350 --> 01:28:17,360
idea that

2609
01:28:20,550 --> 01:28:19,360
there are these rules and some of the

2610
01:28:21,750 --> 01:28:20,560
some of them are physics some of them

2611
01:28:23,270 --> 01:28:21,760
are mathematics and some of them are

2612
01:28:24,790 --> 01:28:23,280
computation

2613
01:28:27,510 --> 01:28:24,800
you can if you make the right kind of

2614
01:28:29,030 --> 01:28:27,520
device you can reap the benefits of of

2615
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:29,040
some of those laws and evolution does

2616
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:31,760
this all the time evolution discovers

2617
01:28:37,910 --> 01:28:34,560
certain pieces of hardware that then let

2618
01:28:39,430 --> 01:28:37,920
you do amazing amazing things because

2619
01:28:40,550 --> 01:28:39,440
you're leveraging these laws that are

2620
01:28:43,430 --> 01:28:40,560
out there that are invisible to you

2621
01:28:44,870 --> 01:28:43,440
until you've built the right hardware

2622
01:28:46,709 --> 01:28:44,880
great we'll just get to four more

2623
01:28:48,870 --> 01:28:46,719
questions hopefully they're quick

2624
01:28:51,430 --> 01:28:48,880
feign is the evolutionary suppression of

2625
01:28:55,270 --> 01:28:51,440
regeneration in mammals an advantageous

2626
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:57,510
wow uh i'm not sure about for the

2627
01:29:01,750 --> 01:29:00,239
accumulation of memory i i doubt it

2628
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:01,760
because there are plenty of creatures

2629
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:04,320
that uh it can do perfectly well with

2630
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:06,800
memory that that are highly regenerative

2631
01:29:11,669 --> 01:29:10,000
so so i don't think that it's um you

2632
01:29:13,189 --> 01:29:11,679
need to you i don't think it's

2633
01:29:15,110 --> 01:29:13,199
impossible to have a regenerative

2634
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:15,120
capacity and memory in the same animal

2635
01:29:18,709 --> 01:29:17,840
however um we can think about

2636
01:29:22,229 --> 01:29:18,719
why

2637
01:29:23,830 --> 01:29:22,239
regenerating their limbs so so nobody

2638
01:29:26,470 --> 01:29:23,840
knows but but i'll tell you a plausible

2639
01:29:29,030 --> 01:29:26,480
story that may or may not be correct

2640
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:29,040
imagine that you are the ancestor of

2641
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:30,880
mammals you're the tiny

2642
01:29:33,830 --> 01:29:32,080
thing that looks a little bit like a

2643
01:29:36,870 --> 01:29:33,840
mouse and you're running around the

2644
01:29:39,830 --> 01:29:36,880
forest and somebody bites your leg off

2645
01:29:42,950 --> 01:29:39,840
so the problem is that unlike a

2646
01:29:45,830 --> 01:29:42,960
salamander which can hang out in water

2647
01:29:48,870 --> 01:29:45,840
and take a long time to heal you have a

2648
01:29:51,590 --> 01:29:48,880
rapid metabolism you have a rapid

2649
01:29:54,070 --> 01:29:51,600
heartbeat and blood pressure and

2650
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:54,080
you're going to bleed out long before

2651
01:29:59,669 --> 01:29:57,040
you get a chance to regenerate so your

2652
01:30:02,390 --> 01:29:59,679
job if you want to survive is to form a

2653
01:30:03,750 --> 01:30:02,400
scar and to have an inflammatory

2654
01:30:06,149 --> 01:30:03,760
response that's going to kill off with

2655
01:30:07,750 --> 01:30:06,159
some of the bacteria you need to not

2656
01:30:09,669 --> 01:30:07,760
bleed out so you need to seal the wound

2657
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:09,679
immediately you need to make a scar and

2658
01:30:13,590 --> 01:30:11,920
by the way you are going to try to put

2659
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:13,600
weight on it because you're walking on

2660
01:30:17,270 --> 01:30:15,600
it unlike unlike a salamander which has

2661
01:30:18,470 --> 01:30:17,280
the buoyancy of water to hold you up

2662
01:30:20,470 --> 01:30:18,480
you're going to try to put weight on it

2663
01:30:22,709 --> 01:30:20,480
which means that as soon as some kind of

2664
01:30:23,750 --> 01:30:22,719
delicate blastema is formed and these

2665
01:30:25,590 --> 01:30:23,760
cells are starting to grow you're going

2666
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:25,600
to grind it into the forest floor so

2667
01:30:30,790 --> 01:30:28,800
that's not particularly conducive also

2668
01:30:32,709 --> 01:30:30,800
because you're you're in dry air instead

2669
01:30:33,910 --> 01:30:32,719
of water all of the electrical currents

2670
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:33,920
that need to come out of that wound

2671
01:30:38,310 --> 01:30:35,760
epithelium to drive the electric states

2672
01:30:39,669 --> 01:30:38,320
they can't work because the dry air is a

2673
01:30:41,830 --> 01:30:39,679
is an insulator

2674
01:30:43,910 --> 01:30:41,840
so uh you might imagine that at that

2675
01:30:47,110 --> 01:30:43,920
point you might as well just shift the

2676
01:30:48,709 --> 01:30:47,120
scarring because the regeneration now

2677
01:30:50,790 --> 01:30:48,719
that story

2678
01:30:52,629 --> 01:30:50,800
has pros and cons um

2679
01:30:54,229 --> 01:30:52,639
one nice thing about that story is that

2680
01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:54,239
for example it fits with this really

2681
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:56,639
weird fact why are

2682
01:31:00,790 --> 01:30:58,480
why are deer regenerative on their

2683
01:31:02,390 --> 01:31:00,800
antlers why can deer regenerate massive

2684
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:02,400
amounts of bone and vasculature and

2685
01:31:05,510 --> 01:31:04,000
innervation every year

2686
01:31:06,950 --> 01:31:05,520
i mean what's interesting about the deer

2687
01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:06,960
is they're not putting weight on it

2688
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:08,480
they're catering and carrying it around

2689
01:31:11,430 --> 01:31:10,080
and they never have to it never has to

2690
01:31:13,510 --> 01:31:11,440
worry that it's going to be disrupted

2691
01:31:15,189 --> 01:31:13,520
while it's trying to grow so so that's

2692
01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:15,199
that's one part you know that that that

2693
01:31:19,510 --> 01:31:17,760
fits what doesn't fit is questions like

2694
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:19,520
well okay that explains why the limbs

2695
01:31:22,870 --> 01:31:21,280
don't regenerate how about internal

2696
01:31:24,790 --> 01:31:22,880
organs why don't they regenerate right

2697
01:31:26,629 --> 01:31:24,800
and we don't know so the you know so no

2698
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:26,639
one knows and we can come up with some

2699
01:31:30,470 --> 01:31:27,760
ideas that

2700
01:31:32,310 --> 01:31:30,480
have sort of pros and cons

2701
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:32,320
tom carrick asks well it says

2702
01:31:37,910 --> 01:31:34,880
fascinating are there overlaps with the

2703
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:37,920
field of quantum biology what about orc

2704
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:40,239
or that is i'm sure you've heard of

2705
01:31:44,709 --> 01:31:42,000
stewart hammeroffs and penrose's

2706
01:31:45,590 --> 01:31:44,719
orchestrated objective reduction

2707
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:45,600
yeah

2708
01:31:49,270 --> 01:31:47,920
um

2709
01:31:51,510 --> 01:31:49,280
i don't know

2710
01:31:53,669 --> 01:31:51,520
i i can't say too many useful things

2711
01:31:55,510 --> 01:31:53,679
about that but but i will say sort of

2712
01:31:56,709 --> 01:31:55,520
one thing uh

2713
01:32:07,510 --> 01:31:56,719
i

2714
01:32:09,350 --> 01:32:07,520
one of the most profound

2715
01:32:11,669 --> 01:32:09,360
maybe maybe the only profound tool we

2716
01:32:13,030 --> 01:32:11,679
have to study actual consciousness right

2717
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:13,040
that's we we don't have a lot of other

2718
01:32:16,229 --> 01:32:14,400
tools to study consciousness but

2719
01:32:17,990 --> 01:32:16,239
anesthesia is a pretty good one and the

2720
01:32:18,790 --> 01:32:18,000
interesting thing about anesthesia is

2721
01:32:21,110 --> 01:32:18,800
that

2722
01:32:22,950 --> 01:32:21,120
in general most general anesthetics are

2723
01:32:27,030 --> 01:32:22,960
gap junctional disruptors

2724
01:32:28,870 --> 01:32:27,040
now this this this has uh like many uh

2725
01:32:29,910 --> 01:32:28,880
facts as things that are that are easy

2726
01:32:32,790 --> 01:32:29,920
to understand and some things that are

2727
01:32:36,550 --> 01:32:32,800
deeply puzzling the e the kind of uh

2728
01:32:38,390 --> 01:32:36,560
thing that makes perfect sense is that

2729
01:32:41,189 --> 01:32:38,400
these these electrical networks in the

2730
01:32:45,270 --> 01:32:43,510
manifested various cognitive abilities

2731
01:32:48,229 --> 01:32:45,280
long before they were brains so these

2732
01:32:50,470 --> 01:32:48,239
gap junctions that enable body cells to

2733
01:32:52,470 --> 01:32:50,480
form networks are critical for these

2734
01:32:54,390 --> 01:32:52,480
networks to have memories memories of

2735
01:32:55,990 --> 01:32:54,400
body shape but to make decisions about

2736
01:32:59,189 --> 01:32:56,000
what they're going to grow and so on so

2737
01:33:01,350 --> 01:32:59,199
so the use of gap junctions to

2738
01:33:03,430 --> 01:33:01,360
make networks that can follow

2739
01:33:05,030 --> 01:33:03,440
large scale goals like make a limb and

2740
01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:05,040
make an organ and so on that's

2741
01:33:08,870 --> 01:33:06,880
evolutionarily ancient and it's not

2742
01:33:11,270 --> 01:33:08,880
surprising at all that what evolution

2743
01:33:14,470 --> 01:33:11,280
did when the nervous systems develop was

2744
01:33:16,709 --> 01:33:14,480
to use that same trick to create another

2745
01:33:18,470 --> 01:33:16,719
type of cognitive agent which which

2746
01:33:20,310 --> 01:33:18,480
lives basically central ascension

2747
01:33:22,709 --> 01:33:20,320
centered in the brain and use this the

2748
01:33:24,470 --> 01:33:22,719
exact same reuse the exact same hardware

2749
01:33:27,110 --> 01:33:24,480
for that so that makes sense and so it

2750
01:33:29,110 --> 01:33:27,120
makes total sense that that goes away

2751
01:33:31,590 --> 01:33:29,120
when when uh those gap generators are

2752
01:33:33,270 --> 01:33:31,600
disrupted by a general anesthetic it

2753
01:33:37,350 --> 01:33:33,280
also makes total sense that if we want

2754
01:33:39,669 --> 01:33:37,360
to turn a planarian it into the head of

2755
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:39,679
make its head turn its head into uh the

2756
01:33:43,590 --> 01:33:41,600
head of a different species of planarian

2757
01:33:45,590 --> 01:33:43,600
guess what we use a general anesthetic

2758
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:45,600
called octanol it's the exact same thing

2759
01:33:49,189 --> 01:33:47,520
it's a gap junctional disruptor so what

2760
01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:49,199
you're doing is you're basically

2761
01:33:53,590 --> 01:33:51,679
disrupting that proto-cognitive agent

2762
01:33:55,189 --> 01:33:53,600
the collective intelligence of the body

2763
01:33:57,750 --> 01:33:55,199
that normally remembers how to make a

2764
01:33:59,110 --> 01:33:57,760
particular kind of head you're basically

2765
01:34:02,229 --> 01:33:59,120
disrupting that with this general

2766
01:34:04,070 --> 01:34:02,239
anesthetic now the amazing thing about

2767
01:34:05,750 --> 01:34:04,080
general anesthetic is that any of us

2768
01:34:07,270 --> 01:34:05,760
ever come back from it being the same

2769
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:07,280
person think about it you have this

2770
01:34:10,470 --> 01:34:08,239
brain

2771
01:34:12,470 --> 01:34:10,480
you have you have right it's a it it

2772
01:34:14,870 --> 01:34:12,480
supports the cognitive structures of a

2773
01:34:16,709 --> 01:34:14,880
very complex creature and then

2774
01:34:18,870 --> 01:34:16,719
for some number of hours you simply

2775
01:34:19,990 --> 01:34:18,880
disconnect most of the cells from being

2776
01:34:21,830 --> 01:34:20,000
electrically

2777
01:34:24,310 --> 01:34:21,840
in communication with each other and

2778
01:34:25,510 --> 01:34:24,320
then you let the connections reform

2779
01:34:27,270 --> 01:34:25,520
and you just sort of hope that

2780
01:34:29,430 --> 01:34:27,280
everything comes back to how it was

2781
01:34:30,709 --> 01:34:29,440
right if i didn't know

2782
01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:30,719
you know if we didn't know that the

2783
01:34:33,990 --> 01:34:32,400
general anesthetics work somebody were

2784
01:34:34,870 --> 01:34:34,000
to tell me that that's their plan i

2785
01:34:37,750 --> 01:34:34,880
would say

2786
01:34:39,030 --> 01:34:37,760
well you might get a living living human

2787
01:34:40,470 --> 01:34:39,040
out of it at the end but certainly not

2788
01:34:41,590 --> 01:34:40,480
going to be the patient that walked in

2789
01:34:43,189 --> 01:34:41,600
you you know you're going to bear no

2790
01:34:44,709 --> 01:34:43,199
resurrection yeah of course you're going

2791
01:34:47,830 --> 01:34:44,719
to completely wreck their mental state

2792
01:34:49,910 --> 01:34:47,840
and and so so one thing that's amazing

2793
01:34:51,669 --> 01:34:49,920
is that actually most people come out of

2794
01:34:53,109 --> 01:34:51,679
it being the more or less the same

2795
01:34:54,950 --> 01:34:53,119
person as they went in

2796
01:34:57,990 --> 01:34:54,960
but the other interesting thing is not

2797
01:34:59,590 --> 01:34:58,000
everybody so in fact um there is this is

2798
01:35:00,870 --> 01:34:59,600
why they don't give they don't like to

2799
01:35:02,390 --> 01:35:00,880
give general anaesthetic if they can

2800
01:35:05,189 --> 01:35:02,400
help it because some people have

2801
01:35:07,030 --> 01:35:05,199
permanent psychosis some people um in

2802
01:35:09,430 --> 01:35:07,040
fact many people have hallucinations on

2803
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:09,440
their way out um out of it that

2804
01:35:13,830 --> 01:35:11,280
eventually resolve as the brain sort of

2805
01:35:15,430 --> 01:35:13,840
finds its its attractors that were there

2806
01:35:17,830 --> 01:35:15,440
before but if you watch you can go to

2807
01:35:19,590 --> 01:35:17,840
youtube and you can watch some really um

2808
01:35:21,030 --> 01:35:19,600
sort of funny videos of people coming

2809
01:35:22,470 --> 01:35:21,040
out of general anesthesia right and you

2810
01:35:23,910 --> 01:35:22,480
know people think they're pirates and

2811
01:35:25,669 --> 01:35:23,920
they're gangsters and they you know they

2812
01:35:27,109 --> 01:35:25,679
don't understand where where they've

2813
01:35:29,189 --> 01:35:27,119
been and they have all these crazy

2814
01:35:31,750 --> 01:35:29,199
stories about who they think they are

2815
01:35:33,350 --> 01:35:31,760
and eventually that sort of resolves and

2816
01:35:34,790 --> 01:35:33,360
not really that part's not really

2817
01:35:36,790 --> 01:35:34,800
surprising i'm shocked anybody ever

2818
01:35:37,990 --> 01:35:36,800
comes out of it you know properly that

2819
01:35:40,709 --> 01:35:38,000
it's amazing

2820
01:35:42,950 --> 01:35:40,719
so uh the planaria is exactly the same

2821
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:42,960
thing so when you disrupt their um their

2822
01:35:45,590 --> 01:35:44,320
gap junctions

2823
01:35:48,709 --> 01:35:45,600
the first thing they do is they

2824
01:35:51,109 --> 01:35:48,719
regenerate random heads that belong

2825
01:35:53,830 --> 01:35:51,119
possibly to other species right and then

2826
01:35:55,750 --> 01:35:53,840
after about uh 30 days

2827
01:35:58,709 --> 01:35:55,760
those heads actually remodel back to the

2828
01:35:59,590 --> 01:35:58,719
correct species a species-specific shape

2829
01:36:02,790 --> 01:35:59,600
so

2830
01:36:06,070 --> 01:36:02,800
looks exactly like what happens when you

2831
01:36:08,550 --> 01:36:06,080
come out of general anesthesia

2832
01:36:10,070 --> 01:36:08,560
okay mo flow wants to know how does he

2833
01:36:14,310 --> 01:36:10,080
see his work relating to david

2834
01:36:19,109 --> 01:36:16,950
yeah um yeah interesting uh it's it's

2835
01:36:20,950 --> 01:36:19,119
funny i've been talking a lot i talked

2836
01:36:22,470 --> 01:36:20,960
to david recently and i uh i've been

2837
01:36:24,629 --> 01:36:22,480
thinking a lot about um people have been

2838
01:36:25,750 --> 01:36:24,639
asking me a lot about aging bioelectrics

2839
01:36:28,149 --> 01:36:25,760
of aging

2840
01:36:29,910 --> 01:36:28,159
um i i don't know i don't know what the

2841
01:36:31,430 --> 01:36:29,920
relationship between bioelectrics and

2842
01:36:32,470 --> 01:36:31,440
aging really is

2843
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:32,480
um

2844
01:36:36,310 --> 01:36:34,400
i can tell you that

2845
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:36,320
uh planaria as far as we can tell don't

2846
01:36:41,030 --> 01:36:38,159
age there's no such thing as an old

2847
01:36:43,750 --> 01:36:41,040
planarian they live forever if

2848
01:36:44,870 --> 01:36:43,760
you know if they're not injured and so

2849
01:36:48,550 --> 01:36:44,880
uh

2850
01:36:50,709 --> 01:36:48,560
i think what that tells us is that aging

2851
01:36:52,629 --> 01:36:50,719
it would be resolved if we could crank

2852
01:36:54,070 --> 01:36:52,639
up regenerative capacity to the point

2853
01:36:56,390 --> 01:36:54,080
where we would constantly be

2854
01:36:58,470 --> 01:36:56,400
regenerating any to any cells that that

2855
01:37:00,709 --> 01:36:58,480
aged right senescing cells would just be

2856
01:37:04,070 --> 01:37:00,719
regenerated the way planaria do

2857
01:37:06,550 --> 01:37:04,080
so my sis my strong suspicion is that

2858
01:37:08,790 --> 01:37:06,560
uh aging is a is a

2859
01:37:09,910 --> 01:37:08,800
a consequence of our poor ability to

2860
01:37:11,830 --> 01:37:09,920
stay

2861
01:37:13,830 --> 01:37:11,840
with the appropriate anatomical

2862
01:37:16,070 --> 01:37:13,840
structure through long periods of time

2863
01:37:18,070 --> 01:37:16,080
and if we cracked that problem we would

2864
01:37:20,709 --> 01:37:18,080
simultaneously get the answer to to

2865
01:37:22,390 --> 01:37:20,719
aging cancer degenerative disease and

2866
01:37:24,950 --> 01:37:22,400
traumatic injury i think it all comes

2867
01:37:27,189 --> 01:37:24,960
down to the ability to to to defend a

2868
01:37:29,189 --> 01:37:27,199
particular body plan over time

2869
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:29,199
i know many people say that telomere

2870
01:37:32,709 --> 01:37:30,880
length has to do with aging well the

2871
01:37:34,470 --> 01:37:32,719
shortened telomere length and you're

2872
01:37:36,709 --> 01:37:34,480
suggesting well it could be that but

2873
01:37:38,390 --> 01:37:36,719
it's also related to this

2874
01:37:40,229 --> 01:37:38,400
morphogenetic code that you're referring

2875
01:37:43,109 --> 01:37:40,239
to and

2876
01:37:45,350 --> 01:37:43,119
yeah are they interrelated somehow

2877
01:37:48,070 --> 01:37:45,360
probably i mean i am not an expert on

2878
01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:48,080
telomeres i have no idea what's going on

2879
01:37:52,229 --> 01:37:50,719
with telomeres in planaria i'm assuming

2880
01:37:54,149 --> 01:37:52,239
somebody's studying it we certainly

2881
01:37:55,510 --> 01:37:54,159
haven't i'm assuming somebody must be

2882
01:37:57,750 --> 01:37:55,520
all i know is

2883
01:38:00,070 --> 01:37:57,760
this this story of

2884
01:38:01,750 --> 01:38:00,080
inevitable aging because you keep making

2885
01:38:03,350 --> 01:38:01,760
copies of things and fundamentally

2886
01:38:05,030 --> 01:38:03,360
things are the information is degrading

2887
01:38:07,189 --> 01:38:05,040
and eventually you you don't have it

2888
01:38:08,390 --> 01:38:07,199
anymore uh and it's degrading at the

2889
01:38:10,550 --> 01:38:08,400
ends because you know because that's

2890
01:38:11,990 --> 01:38:10,560
where you're eating that that clearly

2891
01:38:14,550 --> 01:38:12,000
cannot be the whole story because

2892
01:38:15,669 --> 01:38:14,560
planaria avoided permanently so whatever

2893
01:38:18,790 --> 01:38:15,679
they're doing

2894
01:38:21,830 --> 01:38:18,800
is uh is is is the way to get around

2895
01:38:24,709 --> 01:38:21,840
aging and i think it's more than a

2896
01:38:26,470 --> 01:38:24,719
coincidence that the species that is

2897
01:38:28,229 --> 01:38:26,480
immortal is also the species with the

2898
01:38:30,390 --> 01:38:28,239
greatest regenerative capacity or let's

2899
01:38:31,990 --> 01:38:30,400
say the set of species so i i don't

2900
01:38:33,669 --> 01:38:32,000
think that's a that's a that's a crazy

2901
01:38:35,030 --> 01:38:33,679
coincidence that i think there's there's

2902
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:35,040
a reason for that

2903
01:38:39,990 --> 01:38:36,960
okay the last question

2904
01:38:41,590 --> 01:38:40,000
nate brundman can you imagine

2905
01:38:43,430 --> 01:38:41,600
referring to you michael can you imagine

2906
01:38:46,470 --> 01:38:43,440
a mental practice by which a person can

2907
01:38:49,189 --> 01:38:46,480
influence the goal state of the body for

2908
01:38:50,790 --> 01:38:49,199
example joe dispenza has made some

2909
01:38:53,189 --> 01:38:50,800
claims that he's healed his body in a

2910
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:53,199
way that doctors say are impossible it

2911
01:38:57,430 --> 01:38:55,520
also a question i had for you earlier

2912
01:38:59,910 --> 01:38:57,440
which relates to this is

2913
01:39:01,510 --> 01:38:59,920
how your work is related to the placebo

2914
01:39:02,790 --> 01:39:01,520
effect

2915
01:39:03,910 --> 01:39:02,800
so

2916
01:39:05,350 --> 01:39:03,920
whether or not you see the connection

2917
01:39:06,790 --> 01:39:05,360
there i'm interested in the placebo

2918
01:39:08,790 --> 01:39:06,800
effect too i'm trying to sneak in two

2919
01:39:11,910 --> 01:39:08,800
questions for the pressure one

2920
01:39:14,229 --> 01:39:11,920
yeah um okay so so i i don't know

2921
01:39:16,070 --> 01:39:14,239
anything about uh joe dispenza i don't

2922
01:39:18,790 --> 01:39:16,080
know anything about the claims that he's

2923
01:39:20,790 --> 01:39:18,800
made or or any specific uh you know kind

2924
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:20,800
of uh healing event

2925
01:39:24,229 --> 01:39:22,800
but i'll give you kind of a general

2926
01:39:25,669 --> 01:39:24,239
thought about this

2927
01:39:27,990 --> 01:39:25,679
it is

2928
01:39:29,590 --> 01:39:28,000
uncontroversial

2929
01:39:32,470 --> 01:39:29,600
that

2930
01:39:33,990 --> 01:39:32,480
your your thoughts whatever they may be

2931
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:34,000
whether or not uh you know whatever

2932
01:39:37,590 --> 01:39:36,000
whatever you think thinking is it is

2933
01:39:40,310 --> 01:39:37,600
pretty uncontroversial that your

2934
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:40,320
thoughts affect the physiological

2935
01:39:44,629 --> 01:39:41,760
functioning of your body i mean that's

2936
01:39:47,189 --> 01:39:44,639
obvious if you if you want to get up and

2937
01:39:50,550 --> 01:39:47,199
walk around your thoughts have now

2938
01:39:51,830 --> 01:39:50,560
activated various uh electrical pathways

2939
01:39:54,629 --> 01:39:51,840
they've triggered a bunch of muscle

2940
01:39:56,310 --> 01:39:54,639
motion if you have a tendency to you

2941
01:39:59,350 --> 01:39:56,320
know mentally work yourself up into an

2942
01:40:02,229 --> 01:39:59,360
anxious state you can certainly by by by

2943
01:40:04,229 --> 01:40:02,239
your thinking uh crank up various stress

2944
01:40:06,229 --> 01:40:04,239
enzyme production in your body right we

2945
01:40:08,310 --> 01:40:06,239
all know that you can do the opposite if

2946
01:40:09,669 --> 01:40:08,320
you if you've trained in techniques to

2947
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:09,679
calm yourself down under various

2948
01:40:14,149 --> 01:40:12,400
circumstances you can uh reduce the

2949
01:40:17,030 --> 01:40:14,159
level of cortisol in your blood you can

2950
01:40:19,750 --> 01:40:17,040
reduce um various uh various fire and

2951
01:40:22,790 --> 01:40:19,760
flight responses so it's it's it's not

2952
01:40:25,189 --> 01:40:22,800
some some some weird um you know of a

2953
01:40:27,030 --> 01:40:25,199
voodoo kind of claim to uh to say that

2954
01:40:28,870 --> 01:40:27,040
that your thoughts absolutely affect the

2955
01:40:30,310 --> 01:40:28,880
biophysical processes of your body we do

2956
01:40:31,669 --> 01:40:30,320
it every day if that wasn't true you

2957
01:40:33,270 --> 01:40:31,679
couldn't get up in the morning when you

2958
01:40:35,030 --> 01:40:33,280
wanted to get up and go to work so so

2959
01:40:37,430 --> 01:40:35,040
it's it's that part's completely obvious

2960
01:40:40,229 --> 01:40:37,440
so from there it's a very

2961
01:40:40,950 --> 01:40:40,239
short uh hop skip and a jump to the idea

2962
01:40:42,790 --> 01:40:40,960
that

2963
01:40:45,189 --> 01:40:42,800
not only can you give commands to your

2964
01:40:46,149 --> 01:40:45,199
muscles and your glands to produce

2965
01:40:47,990 --> 01:40:46,159
various

2966
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:48,000
hormones neurotransmitters and muscle

2967
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:50,320
motion but you might be able to exert

2968
01:40:55,109 --> 01:40:51,920
some influence over other cells for

2969
01:40:57,590 --> 01:40:55,119
example skin cells um in your uh you

2970
01:40:59,430 --> 01:40:57,600
know at wounds and and uh and you and

2971
01:41:01,350 --> 01:40:59,440
your liver the in the way that it

2972
01:41:03,750 --> 01:41:01,360
processes information

2973
01:41:05,510 --> 01:41:03,760
i don't find it implausible whatsoever

2974
01:41:07,510 --> 01:41:05,520
so i don't again i'm not commenting on

2975
01:41:08,950 --> 01:41:07,520
any particular instance of anybody

2976
01:41:10,390 --> 01:41:08,960
having healed themselves of anything i'm

2977
01:41:13,510 --> 01:41:10,400
just saying that

2978
01:41:16,550 --> 01:41:13,520
it is it is uh it is it is not

2979
01:41:18,550 --> 01:41:16,560
uh it is not a stretch to think that not

2980
01:41:20,629 --> 01:41:18,560
only can you talk to your van

2981
01:41:22,070 --> 01:41:20,639
when i say talk i mean you know exert

2982
01:41:24,870 --> 01:41:22,080
exert influence

2983
01:41:26,790 --> 01:41:24,880
on your uh on your various glands that

2984
01:41:28,470 --> 01:41:26,800
that put out cortisol and adrenaline and

2985
01:41:30,310 --> 01:41:28,480
various other things

2986
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:30,320
why can't why can't you send commands to

2987
01:41:34,950 --> 01:41:32,719
other cells i that that seems it seems

2988
01:41:36,790 --> 01:41:34,960
silly to think that that's impossible

2989
01:41:39,350 --> 01:41:36,800
so um

2990
01:41:42,310 --> 01:41:39,360
having said all that i think that uh the

2991
01:41:43,910 --> 01:41:42,320
placebo effect is extremely profound i

2992
01:41:46,390 --> 01:41:43,920
think that what it's telling us is that

2993
01:41:48,310 --> 01:41:46,400
there is a communication across levels

2994
01:41:49,910 --> 01:41:48,320
so you have meaning that you have a

2995
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:49,920
level of organization that consists of

2996
01:41:54,310 --> 01:41:52,480
your body cells and that has a degree of

2997
01:41:55,910 --> 01:41:54,320
cognition and a degree of intelligence

2998
01:41:57,750 --> 01:41:55,920
but your body is also home to an

2999
01:42:00,149 --> 01:41:57,760
additional intelligence which lives

3000
01:42:02,390 --> 01:42:00,159
probably largely in the brain and it

3001
01:42:04,470 --> 01:42:02,400
appears that those two can uh can

3002
01:42:05,669 --> 01:42:04,480
communicate in various ways and i can

3003
01:42:07,910 --> 01:42:05,679
imagine that

3004
01:42:09,430 --> 01:42:07,920
there are new there are lots of things

3005
01:42:11,669 --> 01:42:09,440
to be discovered about ways to improve

3006
01:42:13,270 --> 01:42:11,679
that communication and have you know we

3007
01:42:15,030 --> 01:42:13,280
know we know there are certain practices

3008
01:42:17,510 --> 01:42:15,040
where people extend the amount of time

3009
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:17,520
they can they can sit under water and

3010
01:42:21,669 --> 01:42:19,679
and uh change their body temperature and

3011
01:42:23,990 --> 01:42:21,679
and change their their pulse rate and

3012
01:42:27,189 --> 01:42:24,000
things like that i find it completely

3013
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:27,199
plausible that that there are ways to uh

3014
01:42:29,910 --> 01:42:28,880
communicate in that way to other cells

3015
01:42:31,750 --> 01:42:29,920
in the body

3016
01:42:32,629 --> 01:42:31,760
also

3017
01:42:35,830 --> 01:42:32,639
uh

3018
01:42:38,950 --> 01:42:35,840
there is the there is the field of um

3019
01:42:40,709 --> 01:42:38,960
hypno dermatology where where people by

3020
01:42:42,310 --> 01:42:40,719
hypnosis try to treat various skin

3021
01:42:44,390 --> 01:42:42,320
diseases some of which have a neural

3022
01:42:46,229 --> 01:42:44,400
neuroimmune component some of which may

3023
01:42:49,270 --> 01:42:46,239
not have a neuroimmune component

3024
01:42:51,830 --> 01:42:49,280
so um the activity of of the mind which

3025
01:42:54,310 --> 01:42:51,840
is simply the execution of of the

3026
01:42:56,550 --> 01:42:54,320
physiological computations that happen

3027
01:42:58,229 --> 01:42:56,560
in the brain affect physiological

3028
01:42:59,830 --> 01:42:58,239
computations that happen outside the

3029
01:43:01,750 --> 01:42:59,840
brain i don't think that's i don't think

3030
01:43:03,109 --> 01:43:01,760
that's particularly a stretch

3031
01:43:04,790 --> 01:43:03,119
at all

3032
01:43:06,709 --> 01:43:04,800
one of your goals is an anatomical

3033
01:43:08,709 --> 01:43:06,719
compiler and then what you just said

3034
01:43:10,149 --> 01:43:08,719
made me think well some of these people

3035
01:43:13,430 --> 01:43:10,159
who are meditating or on the more

3036
01:43:15,189 --> 01:43:13,440
meditative side tend to work with

3037
01:43:16,470 --> 01:43:15,199
thoughts to heal oneself then i was

3038
01:43:19,669 --> 01:43:16,480
wondering hmm i wonder if your

3039
01:43:22,390 --> 01:43:19,679
anatomical compiler can advise some of

3040
01:43:24,229 --> 01:43:22,400
the more thought-based healing practices

3041
01:43:26,629 --> 01:43:24,239
here's an example you say well if you

3042
01:43:28,390 --> 01:43:26,639
were to think of this image it's more

3043
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:28,400
likely to heal you than if you were to

3044
01:43:31,910 --> 01:43:30,080
think of this other image do you think

3045
01:43:33,830 --> 01:43:31,920
that's at all possible or that's way too

3046
01:43:35,189 --> 01:43:33,840
high level

3047
01:43:37,270 --> 01:43:35,199
i don't think it's i don't think it's

3048
01:43:38,709 --> 01:43:37,280
impossible no uh

3049
01:43:41,030 --> 01:43:38,719
again i'm not suggesting that there's

3050
01:43:43,109 --> 01:43:41,040
i'm not supporting any particular image

3051
01:43:45,669 --> 01:43:43,119
of as being a healing one but i don't

3052
01:43:46,470 --> 01:43:45,679
think it's it's impossible at all i mean

3053
01:43:51,189 --> 01:43:46,480
the

3054
01:43:52,629 --> 01:43:51,199
various types of um pulsed light stimuli

3055
01:43:53,910 --> 01:43:52,639
into the retina having some some

3056
01:43:55,990 --> 01:43:53,920
interesting neuro

3057
01:43:58,390 --> 01:43:56,000
neuroprotective effects in the brain and

3058
01:44:00,070 --> 01:43:58,400
so on um yeah all of this it's it's a

3059
01:44:01,910 --> 01:44:00,080
giant electrical network all of the

3060
01:44:03,910 --> 01:44:01,920
cells are communicating with each other

3061
01:44:06,310 --> 01:44:03,920
uh there's absolutely no reason why that

3062
01:44:07,910 --> 01:44:06,320
couldn't work but i think that um you

3063
01:44:10,229 --> 01:44:07,920
know to be clear this anatomical

3064
01:44:12,950 --> 01:44:10,239
compiler isn't just us you know

3065
01:44:15,590 --> 01:44:12,960
the anatomical compiler is a

3066
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:15,600
it's a sort of practical um

3067
01:44:19,109 --> 01:44:17,520
personification of the goal that all of

3068
01:44:20,709 --> 01:44:19,119
us in the community are going for which

3069
01:44:22,310 --> 01:44:20,719
is the ability to control growth and

3070
01:44:23,750 --> 01:44:22,320
form right and and when we have that

3071
01:44:25,590 --> 01:44:23,760
ability that's when the anatomical

3072
01:44:26,790 --> 01:44:25,600
compiler becomes positive possible so

3073
01:44:28,550 --> 01:44:26,800
it's not just something that we you know

3074
01:44:31,270 --> 01:44:28,560
we in particular are working on

3075
01:44:33,270 --> 01:44:31,280
but i think that uh this is this is part

3076
01:44:36,149 --> 01:44:33,280
of all the things you're discussing now

3077
01:44:38,550 --> 01:44:36,159
are part of the deep reason why

3078
01:44:40,550 --> 01:44:38,560
cognitive science and consciousness and

3079
01:44:42,870 --> 01:44:40,560
all of those kinds of things are deeply

3080
01:44:44,790 --> 01:44:42,880
related to developmental biology and

3081
01:44:47,030 --> 01:44:44,800
physiology right they're they're

3082
01:44:49,350 --> 01:44:47,040
absolutely interrelated because they are

3083
01:44:52,310 --> 01:44:49,360
two sides of the same coin information

3084
01:44:54,310 --> 01:44:52,320
processing in goal-directed hierarchical

3085
01:44:56,149 --> 01:44:54,320
systems and when you understand the more

3086
01:44:58,390 --> 01:44:56,159
you understand about one the better you

3087
01:45:00,950 --> 01:44:58,400
are at managing the others this is this

3088
01:45:02,550 --> 01:45:00,960
is two sides of the same question

3089
01:45:05,109 --> 01:45:02,560
where can people find out more about you

3090
01:45:07,350 --> 01:45:05,119
and what's next for you

3091
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:07,360
well uh they can find out uh i have a i

3092
01:45:10,750 --> 01:45:09,760
have a website um

3093
01:45:13,830 --> 01:45:10,760
at

3094
01:45:16,870 --> 01:45:13,840
drmik11.org uh we have a center website

3095
01:45:18,870 --> 01:45:16,880
which is allencenter.tufts.com

3096
01:45:20,550 --> 01:45:18,880
i have a twitter feed which is at

3097
01:45:22,550 --> 01:45:20,560
drmik11

3098
01:45:24,790 --> 01:45:22,560
and uh what's next uh it's a good

3099
01:45:26,310 --> 01:45:24,800
question i i don't you know i can't tell

3100
01:45:27,910 --> 01:45:26,320
you exactly what's going to happen next

3101
01:45:29,590 --> 01:45:27,920
but i certainly know the things that we

3102
01:45:30,390 --> 01:45:29,600
are trying to do and that we're working

3103
01:45:32,149 --> 01:45:30,400
on

3104
01:45:33,910 --> 01:45:32,159
and you can go to our website and see

3105
01:45:34,790 --> 01:45:33,920
all kinds of projects that we're working

3106
01:45:36,629 --> 01:45:34,800
on

3107
01:45:39,270 --> 01:45:36,639
in the um

3108
01:45:40,709 --> 01:45:39,280
in the areas of trying to lay a better

3109
01:45:42,950 --> 01:45:40,719
foundation for understanding basal

3110
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:42,960
cognition and

3111
01:45:47,270 --> 01:45:45,199
understanding morphogenesis and

3112
01:45:50,149 --> 01:45:47,280
developing applications and birth birth

3113
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:50,159
defects and regeneration and cancer

3114
01:45:53,830 --> 01:45:51,840
we're doing some work in machine

3115
01:45:56,310 --> 01:45:53,840
learning and trying to sort of close

3116
01:45:57,990 --> 01:45:56,320
that loop and understand how

3117
01:46:01,830 --> 01:45:58,000
we can use the principles that we learn

3118
01:46:04,629 --> 01:46:01,840
in biology to make better uh cognitive

3119
01:46:06,709 --> 01:46:04,639
to to make novel and better um cognitive

3120
01:46:08,149 --> 01:46:06,719
systems that are going to help us in in

3121
01:46:09,910 --> 01:46:08,159
various ways

3122
01:46:11,109 --> 01:46:09,920
and the links to everything that michael

3123
01:46:13,350 --> 01:46:11,119
just mentioned will be in the

3124
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:13,360
description so please check that out you

3125
01:46:16,709 --> 01:46:14,800
mentioned two sides of the same coin but

3126
01:46:18,149 --> 01:46:16,719
i didn't quite understand that how is it

3127
01:46:19,669 --> 01:46:18,159
that developmental biology and

3128
01:46:21,030 --> 01:46:19,679
consciousness may be two sides because

3129
01:46:22,870 --> 01:46:21,040
you mentioned one is first and third

3130
01:46:24,550 --> 01:46:22,880
person is the other so how are they two

3131
01:46:27,430 --> 01:46:24,560
sides of the same coin

3132
01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:27,440
well in in in many ways uh first of all

3133
01:46:34,470 --> 01:46:28,639
uh

3134
01:46:36,870 --> 01:46:34,480
single cell and that cell self-assembles

3135
01:46:40,310 --> 01:46:36,880
into a creature that can later say i am

3136
01:46:42,229 --> 01:46:40,320
a centralized intelligence i am i i

3137
01:46:43,830 --> 01:46:42,239
a self yeah that may be but you're made

3138
01:46:45,990 --> 01:46:43,840
of a bunch of cells and in fact you used

3139
01:46:48,790 --> 01:46:46,000
to be one cell and then a ball of cells

3140
01:46:51,910 --> 01:46:48,800
and so that whole process of of how that

3141
01:46:55,270 --> 01:46:51,920
that that's that unified self is

3142
01:46:57,350 --> 01:46:55,280
arranged uh and and uh supported by a

3143
01:47:00,070 --> 01:46:57,360
collection of of competent agents these

3144
01:47:02,550 --> 01:47:00,080
being cells is very similar to uh how

3145
01:47:04,470 --> 01:47:02,560
the body is in the pattern of the body

3146
01:47:06,790 --> 01:47:04,480
is is arranged by the collective

3147
01:47:08,550 --> 01:47:06,800
intelligence of cells morphogenesis is a

3148
01:47:10,149 --> 01:47:08,560
collective intelligence problem it is

3149
01:47:11,830 --> 01:47:10,159
not a chemistry problem or a genetics

3150
01:47:14,070 --> 01:47:11,840
problem it's a problem of collective

3151
01:47:16,629 --> 01:47:14,080
intelligence and

3152
01:47:18,629 --> 01:47:16,639
those same kinds of issues arise when

3153
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:18,639
you're trying to understand any kind of

3154
01:47:22,390 --> 01:47:20,239
a

3155
01:47:24,629 --> 01:47:22,400
intelligence

3156
01:47:27,430 --> 01:47:24,639
how does the information processing and

3157
01:47:29,510 --> 01:47:27,440
the capacities of lots of independent

3158
01:47:31,430 --> 01:47:29,520
subunits in the case of brains those

3159
01:47:33,270 --> 01:47:31,440
will be neurons but in the case of the

3160
01:47:36,310 --> 01:47:33,280
body there'll be other types of cells

3161
01:47:38,470 --> 01:47:36,320
how do they work together to pursue

3162
01:47:39,750 --> 01:47:38,480
goals and plans and have preferences

3163
01:47:42,149 --> 01:47:39,760
that don't belong to any of the

3164
01:47:44,390 --> 01:47:42,159
individual subunits themselves

3165
01:47:46,310 --> 01:47:44,400
right the making a limb is a goal that

3166
01:47:48,870 --> 01:47:46,320
no individual cell can can no no no

3167
01:47:50,470 --> 01:47:48,880
individual cell knows what a limb is or

3168
01:47:51,830 --> 01:47:50,480
you can can answer the question for how

3169
01:47:53,750 --> 01:47:51,840
many fingers are we supposed to have or

3170
01:47:56,470 --> 01:47:53,760
how long is the finger supposed to be

3171
01:47:58,149 --> 01:47:56,480
that is a piece of information that only

3172
01:48:00,390 --> 01:47:58,159
the cellular collective has right so

3173
01:48:02,390 --> 01:48:00,400
this ability of

3174
01:48:03,750 --> 01:48:02,400
pursuing large-scale goals of having and

3175
01:48:05,109 --> 01:48:03,760
having collective information that's

3176
01:48:07,270 --> 01:48:05,119
more than the sum of its parts is

3177
01:48:09,750 --> 01:48:07,280
exactly the same question of where does

3178
01:48:11,350 --> 01:48:09,760
intelligence uh and and and you know

3179
01:48:13,430 --> 01:48:11,360
sort of uh

3180
01:48:15,270 --> 01:48:13,440
cognitive capacity come from those are

3181
01:48:16,629 --> 01:48:15,280
all

3182
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:16,639
those problems will be answered together

3183
01:48:20,310 --> 01:48:18,800
they will not be answered if either one

3184
01:48:22,709 --> 01:48:20,320
of these things remains mysterious we

3185
01:48:24,470 --> 01:48:22,719
won't have an answer to the other

3186
01:48:26,470 --> 01:48:24,480
thank you sir thank you so much for

3187
01:48:27,910 --> 01:48:26,480
spending so much thank you very much

3188
01:48:30,550 --> 01:48:27,920
yeah thank you for your questions i want

3189
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:30,560
to make let everyone know that this i

3190
01:48:35,510 --> 01:48:33,360
think is nobel prize winning work so i i

3191
01:48:36,950 --> 01:48:35,520
will do my best to promote this and

3192
01:48:38,310 --> 01:48:36,960
and get you

3193
01:48:40,149 --> 01:48:38,320
get you some more attention man i hope

3194
01:48:43,030 --> 01:48:40,159
so thank you thank you very much that's

3195
01:48:44,950 --> 01:48:43,040
very kind thank you i appreciate it

3196
01:48:46,629 --> 01:48:44,960
the podcast is now finished if you'd

3197
01:48:49,189 --> 01:48:46,639
like to support conversations like this

3198
01:48:53,910 --> 01:48:49,199
then do consider going to patreon.com

3199
01:48:56,550 --> 01:48:53,920
slash c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

3200
01:48:58,390 --> 01:48:56,560
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

3201
01:49:00,149 --> 01:48:58,400
the patrons and from the sponsors that